Ep. 105 - Colonialism, Conquest or Cultural Demolition?

What exactly is Christian mission? Is it inevitably linked to empire, to neocolonialism, to power dynamics? Do missionaries inevitably trample on the host culture with ethnocentric arrogance? Shouldn't we just leave others alone, with some kind of detached pluralistic indifference or vague anthropological notion of 'pristine' tribal people who ought not to have contact with or influence from outsiders?

This episode with author, Will Maxson addresses these questions, as we reflect on his latest book about mission and colonisation.

Will spent a few years in Afghanistan and now resides in the States. You can find more about his books here: https://www.willmaxson-author.com/

Transcript

Will 0:02

there historically was a practice in India where, if a man died, his widow would be, burned alive, together with the man's, body on a, funeral pyre. this was a, very widespread practice, foot binding was also a, cultural practice, in China, where, it was considered a mark of beauty where, some aristocratic women would, as they were growing up, as they were young girls, their feet would be tied and wrapped up, to where, the front part of the foot would turn underneath the back part of the foot, rendering them, unable to walk on their own.

Matt 0:39

Hi guys. Welcome back to Raw Mission, the podcast where we bring you challenging and inspiring stories of ordinary folks sharing the good news of our extraordinary God amongst some of the least reached peoples of the world. Now, if we're honest, sometimes the perception we have of mission and missionaries needs updating and reshaping, and that's one of the reasons that this podcast exists. We want to break down stereotypes, to challenge some of the misperceptions that may have held you back from obeying the command to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. And today's guest, I believe, will do just that. Will Maxson spent a few years out in Afghanistan, but more recently has written a book to provide a rebuttal to the often-held idea that mission and colonialism are inextricably tied together, that missionaries are somehow agents of cultural conquest and ethnocentrism. It's a hugely important topic in our day and age, and can be a giant stumbling block that prevents young Christians from getting involved in God's mission well, hi there, Will. It's so good to have you on the show. Welcome

Will 1:40

Thank you very much. It's a privilege to be here

Matt 1:43

Whereabouts are you at the moment

Will 1:45

so I am, based in West Virginia, in the US,

Matt 1:48

Great.

Will 1:48

I'm from originally

Matt 1:49

did you grow up in a Christian family? What's your sort of background faith story? And tell us then after that how you got into global missions

Will 1:56

sure, absolutely. so, I grew up, I would say, nominally Christian, going to church until I was maybe, or 12 years old. at that point, my family, we stopped, going to church together, through most of my teenage years. So I wasn't involved in youth groups at church or, anything like that. And, really my, calling to the Lord is, tied up with my calling to missions. It all happened, at the same time, which was surprising. so, I was in, high school, I would have been 16 at the time, was when, September 11th, 2001 happened and of course, everyone started hearing much more about Afghanistan then, and for reasons I can't explain, apart from the providence of God, I was just absolutely fascinated with the place from the first videos and images I saw on TV, just this hauntingly beautiful place and these people who had suffered through decades of war, suffered more than anyone I had ever heard of. I was just fascinated, and randomly, I, just started researching how someone would get involved in relief work overseas or something like this, At the same time, I, know that God was working on my heart, drawing me closer to Him. There were also several unique, circumstances that played a part in that. I had an English teacher in high school who was, quite an outspoken atheist, some of the things she said annoyed me, and so I, wanted to prove her wrong, and I started, reading some apologetics books. I know people, sometimes don't feel apologetics is the best, evangelism strategy as far as the argumentation and all that, but as far as taking a nominal Christian and deepening my conviction, it was exactly what I needed at the time. I said, Wow, this really is true, and if this really is true, then everyone needs to know about it." And as I, started learning more, started going to church with a friend from high school, joining a youth group. I started learning about missions, and that grew together, with this crazy, interest that I had in Afghanistan. I remember the first time I went to the youth group at this church and telling this, youth pastor about what my interest was in missions in Afghanistan, and he was just kinda like, "I don't know that God would do that, would call someone to do that you're just, you know, exploring, coming to church here for the first time." from that point, I began, researching how, how one would become a missionary, how one would become, involved in this. And, the short version of, the subsequent story is I, I went to a, Christian university, here in the US, where I actually studied, got a bachelor's degree in Bible and missions. I'm glad that I did that, but it did present some challenges in terms of finding a vocation, to work overseas. So I spent a few years kind of wandering, a-around after that. eventually landed in the medical field, became a registered nurse in 2014, spent a couple years, in the hospital, and then went to the field. I was on the field for three years at that point, a short time in India at the beginning, but most of that time in Afghanistan. and then, as some of your listeners are, probably aware, many people there, you know, work for NGOs. 20 years ago, it was, easier for, say, someone with a seminary degree to get a visa to work there doing some small appropriate technology type project. but, by the time, that I was there, late 2010s, the NGO world had become very professional, and there were starting to be more requirements to have an advanced degree in, in your field to get in certain positions. so in 2019, I decided to leave the field, for more education. I spent a year in the UK where I got, essentially a master's in public health with kind of a, specialty, thinking that I could return overseas and this would allow me to maybe manage some community health projects or something like this. so I finished, 2020. I came back to the US, what I thought would be, somewhat temporarily. Then of course in 2021, the Afghanistan government collapsed. it became not impossible, but much more challenging, to return and so back in the US at that point, I thought, well, if I can't be on the field, the least I can do is, work and try to support, other workers who are on the field. And I thought the most efficient way to build on what I had done before and have a stable job was to become a nurse practitioner. I understand that's not really a common role outside of America, but kind of like a junior doctor, I suppose. and, so I'm working now trying to support other field workers and also through my writing, just encourage the church and especially young Christians and possible, future missionaries.

Matt 6:38

Amazing. Let's go back to those years you spent in Afghanistan. So you'd been dreaming of this even as you were coming to faith, going to Afghanistan, working out there. yeah, tell us what that was like for you landing there. I guess you joined a team out there. What kind of role did you play? What were the people like as you got to know them? Because I imagine you hadn't hung out with many Afghans stateside. But yeah, tell us what it was all like. What were the first impressions? What was living in Afghanistan like? Was it as crazy as you imagined?

Will 7:10

yeah, so many, things come to mind. mean, gosh, I'll just say first that, of all of the workers that I knew in my time on the field, I feel the least qualified to be, speaking about the work there, 'cause I feel like I was there for such a short time. I'm, a very introverted person, not, naturally, a, gifted evangelist. hopefully God's grace, played a small part there are so many, saints there who have suffered for so many years, you know, working for the kingdom. and I just want to highlight them and, draw the attention to them and also to God working there. but, when I arrived, yes, I was on a team and had this kind of day job, with a, professional NGO. so my main, kind of mission field was my, local coworkers there, and just trying to come alongside them, encourage them, yeah, answer questions a-about my faith,

Matt 8:02

Describe the street scene. Describe the people you worked with. What's the culture like there? You know, What did you see? What was the food like? What did you wear? Did you have to grow a beard?

Will 8:11

well, I did o-originally grow a beard for working there, and I've, kept it because I like it. It's mostly to, cover up my double chin. But, yeah, my coworkers, Afghan people were, wonderful. just, to make a, generalization, very, w-warm-hearted kind of, gregarious, loyal friends, will really go out of their way to take care of you. of course a lot of people know about the, the hospitality, but it really is true. Yeah, I think it's amazing, just to learn, about the heart of God through the, the hospitality that people display, just the attention to detail, when you're a guest in their country and they really want to make sure that you're, taken care of. when you're a guest of someone there, it's part of their honor to meet your every need, to show that they are able to do that. and if, if I were to try to contribute something and not let my host take care of me, that would, be dishonoring to them as the host, and I, I think that's kind of a picture of the grace of God, in terms of we don't add anything to our, salvation. God does it all from beginning to end. And, when you're hosted in an Afghan home, making sure you have a comfortable place to sleep, they make sure that you fall asleep. when you leave, them putting your shoes in the right direction so you could easily, get them on. making sure they never run out of food, that there's always extra left,

Matt 9:33

It's so true. They are renowned for hospitality, and I mean, that's true in the Muslim world generally, but I would say it's on steroids in Afghanistan or amongst Pashtun people

Will 9:42

Yes

Matt 9:43

highest values in Pakhtunwali, the culture of the Pashtuns, isn't it? And of course, that caused a lot of the problems with Osama Bin Laden politically because they will not release a guest even if they have committed a crime and so on. so that kind

Will 9:57

Indeed

Matt 9:58

their culture has massive international implications as well as just that nice personal touch.

Will 10:03

indeed.

Matt 10:04

But I

Will 10:04

yeah,

Matt 10:05

how you connect, their hospitality to the grace of God. I'd never thought about that before. just yeah, we cannot contribute. They won't let us contribute. What was difficult about living there?

Will 10:16

so when I was there, so this is 2016 to 2019, most days felt normal, and quiet in terms of security. there wasn't any kind of ongoing conflict, in the capital city where I was living on a day-to-day basis or any concern like that. But there had been an increase in, car bombings and some kidnappings of foreigners in recent years and things like that. And so, due to that, my, organization had pretty strict regulations about what I was allowed to do and how often I could, get outside. so the most difficult thing day to day was feeling cooped up, finding ways, to have recreation, to get, sunlight and fresh air and, exercise, and these kind of things. And there were stresses as well related to security concerns at times. but mainly it was, just the day-to-day kind of restrictions, related to the NGO policy actually. And, I had a shorter stint there in 2006 where I rode a bike around all over the city and, just went to random, markets and, tea houses and things, and I wasn't able to do that quite as much, those last few years

Matt 11:22

yeah, that's interesting. The restrictions on freedom, we sometimes associate that with women in the Muslim world, particularly in Afghanistan. But it's true for the men as well, you're right, with the security restrictions. That's a really interesting point. what about the heat or the standard of living, electricity issues? Any of that?

Will 11:41

it is hot in the summer, but not too bad. I, I came from India, and so, I dealt much better with the climate in Afghanistan. I like cold weather. I like snowy mountains. I always feel transported to adventuresome places in snowy mountains and, Afghanistan definitely delivers that. I had this beautiful, stunning view from my apartment, of the mountains outside the city. Really the climate, I've always compared it to a place like Colorado in the US. It can be, dry and quite hot in the summer, but they have cold winters with plenty of snow. challenges as far as electricity, yes, especially in winter, the electricity would usually go out for a portion of every day. heating is usually done by a, a stove, that you have inside your home with a little chimney that goes out through the wall. yeah, so, there are some, practical challenges to living there.

Matt 12:33

And in terms of faith, did you find people were quite happy to talk about God, even if they're fairly entrenched in their own religious background and system and culture? you find faith conversations come quite naturally?

Will 12:45

yes, absolutely. it's normal in their culture to talk about faith and religion in everyday life. and, in a situation where, there's so much adversity, where life can just be more hazardous, in many different ways, people are often thinking about death, often thinking about what happens after death, often asking questions about God. so it's a totally normal, part of everyday life

Matt 13:13

What about the relationship with America? these things are complicated. in Pakistan anyway, there's always a love-hate situation going on with the West. and we'll come onto this later on perhaps as we touch on your writings around colonialism. in your own personal experience, how was it being an American, being a white guy in the middle of Kabul?

Will 13:32

I can't recall ever meeting one person that was hostile or even, unfriendly or guarded toward me when they found out that I was American. usually they were happy to, engage. they were excited to meet someone. never had any issues with that. the main issue as far as, sharing my faith in that way, was just that people have all kinds of misconceptions and stereotypes. they, of course, assume that I am a Christian because I'm American, but they have all kinds of, misconceptions about what that means, seeing the culture that, comes out of the West and the movies and things like this, But that's another opportunity for conversations to show your genuine faith and, change some of the stereotypes

Matt 14:15

yeah, I often think that the work we do is smashing those kind of false ideas or breaking down hostility. or building bridges into their culture, it's a real privilege to do that, isn't it?

Will 14:27

Absolutely

Matt 14:28

Great. Any highlight stories from your years in Afghanistan that you want to share with us, whether they're just, crazy cultural things or gospel opportunities or just, a friend out there who saw something really interesting?

Will 14:42

I did, give Bibles to a few people, and I'm still praying that would, maybe bear fruit, one day. the most meaningful opportunities that I had, I did meet a few, local believers, who had come to faith through others before I got there through various circumstances, but some cases didn't have a lot of fellowship. and so, just time spent with them. there was one guy who, had actually when I first went overseas, I went to India because my team had temporarily relocated there, due to security concerns in Afghanistan. so, I joined the team in India, in a community that had, some Afghan refugees and started learning language there. and there was a young man there that I first met, and he actually decided to, move back to Afghanistan around the same time that, I went back with my team. and he lived in a different city, but he would occasionally, come to visit me and spend a few nights, with me in my home. And, I got to, make a feeble attempt at practicing Afghan hospitality toward him. I'm sure I wasn't a very good host compared to, what he's used to. But, just, two, single guys, hanging out and spending time in the evening and both, trying to figure out how to cook dinner, and, reading the Word and praying together and trying to encourage him. he didn't have any other, fellowship in the city where he lived. those are the times that I really, look back on and treasure,

Matt 16:09

that's awesome. are so often just one part in somebody's story. You know, we small part, a word of encouragement, a little bit of time, they're precious moments. yeah, and we have to trust the Lord that, yeah, even if we're sowing a little bit or watering a bit, He's the one who makes the fruit grow. who sustains, who keeps. Um, yeah, and you know, we're praying of course for Afghanistan and places like that as there are more and more believers actually nowadays, that they'll find each other, they'll be able to have more fellowship. I know sometimes in countries like that, they have to leave to have intense times of fellowship and teaching, and then they go back in. but yeah, it's a big challenge, and anything you've, done is just bringing something of God into that situation. We can rejoice in that and trust that the putting it all together in His great sovereign plan somehow.

Will 16:56

Yeah. Amen. Yeah

Matt 16:57

so then you had to leave, once the government had fallen and everything changed. and you set up this new life back in the States. us then, how did you get into writing about missions and colonialism?

Will 17:11

part of it was, that I wanted to still be able to contribute to missions in some way and be involved, despite being in the US. but also, part of my time, in grad school in the UK as well, I've heard you in another episode talk about, the post-colonial angst that people sometimes, get when they come away from a university, and I definitely saw that. There was a book on decolonizing our particular field that was, all the rage amongst my classmates. but really in general, I think that, someone would have to be living under a rock for the past 10 years to not know that, colonialism is a hot topic in contemporary Western culture. some of your listeners may be familiar with a survey that was taken a few years ago that found a large proportion of young churchgoing Christians, have concerns about this issue, have felt that past mission work was tainted by colonialism. And as I've researched, I've sadly found, a couple of stories of people who deconstructed and renounced their faith in Jesus because of this issue. So I think it's really important for the church to address

Matt 18:11

Yes. that perhaps also coupled with the Me Too movement, anti-racism. that of course is not a new story, but certainly some things in the news have really hit the headlines and there's been this, very strong sensitivity amongst young people, Gen Z and maybe even millennials too, about, cultural appropriation, that it's coming at us in different directions now,

Will 18:35

Yes, absolutely. as far as, the approach that I take in the book to the topic, it's a story-driven history of missions that is specifically focused on this issue of colonialism. I also heard in your, myths about missions episode, you talked about how, mission is not a matter of the West to the rest, that there are many workers from all over the world now, from the Global South. and that is beautifully true and is a really important, point to make. I also think that there is value as far as encouraging young Christians in pointing out that even in the colonial era, for the most part, those Western missionaries then were not as bad as people often assume, as some stereotypes are. And even during the colonial era, there were many indigenous evangelists, involved in global mission as well. I will say also that the book is not, hagiography. I try to be, take a very honest look at missionary history. I cover several, dark chapters of missionary history. but, it's my conviction that, young Christians today as we said, are surrounded by a very post-Christian culture that is extremely hostile toward missions. while lament for past wrongs has its place, if I were to just write a book that kind of amplified criticism and added to what the world is saying, I don't think that's what, young Christians need most today. I think that they need encouragement. And so of course there's truth in the fact that we should, humbly acknowledge past mistakes in Christian history. but our, efforts to do that should be based in truth. and I think that the true story of missions is often more hopeful and redemptive, than people would often assume

Matt 20:20

Yeah, let's dig into some of that what are the key arguments that suggest that missions and colonialism were just always hand in glove, embedded together, and that the missionaries were just part of this giant power dynamic?

Will 20:34

Columbus, of course, first landed in the Americas in, late 15th century. and then, 16th century, a lot of, yeah, Spanish, colonialism. So yes, of course, for many parts of the world, the first encounter with, some form of Christianity did occur at the same time as, Europeans going out and colonizing those parts of the world. particularly there at the beginning, we were on the tail end of the medieval period where church and state were very, integrated. This was, before the Protestant Reformation. And I think especially with, Spanish colonization of the New World, the ideas around, spreading the Catholic Church were very tied up with, spread of Spanish Empire. and I would say that, that period, probably some of the worst atrocities in terms of people who at least claimed Christianity, colonists who were doing different things. and, there were, lots of native people who were lost to, direct violence as well as disease. I would say during that period when there were any advocates, for indigenous people, they tended to be, churchmen who were attempting to advocate. there were some interesting stories of, priests traveling with Spanish conquistadors and, stopping instances of forced conversions and trying to tell these conquistadors not to do that. but there were some genuine atrocities as well, including from priests. probably a lot of the, criticism, would start from that point.

Matt 22:08

Yeah. And it's worth acknowledging that, just because something is wrapped in Christian language or done by Christian people with that name attached to them doesn't mean we have to say therefore we, align with that, Yeah, we have to say, yeah, that was wrong. and then we have to think, why was it wrong? And what is the gospel? And what is missions? and your book delves into that in the first half particularly, doesn't it? what is Christian mission and where does it come from? And does it inherently have a colonizing aspect?

Will 22:35

Yes. one of the things that I, really tried to, address in my book was, first grounding mission in the early church, and how the early church, did not spread through conquest. It spread through, persuasion. It spread organically through believers sharing with friends and family, with their circles. I also really tried to establish that the idea of religious conversion actually, can be good. A lot of people would think that going out and trying to specifically share your faith, get someone to become a Christian, come to Christ, that would be, the essence of colonization, trying to, impose your culture. I try to show in the book that, the idea of going out and trying to persuade someone is actually in contrast to the idea of going out and trying to conquer someone, and force them, to believe in your faith. I really tried to establish that idea because there are some young people out there who might think, the solution to colonialism is just to not try to share my faith, just to go and try to help people," and things like this. if you look back in history, it was usually the people who were concerned about religious conversion, who had a missionary heart, who were the people, advocating for, indigenous people who were, resisting colonial abuses. And that's because if you have a heart for people to believe in Jesus, to come to Christ, that means that you see their humanity as equal, that you respect their moral agency and their ability to choose. and you just see this, continually, in all these stories, that the people who had the strongest missionary heart, were the strongest advocates, for indigenous people

Matt 24:14

Yeah, that's such an important point. because also you draw out in the book that many religions spread by the sword, by conquest, because religion is so tied to one ethnic nationality that it often just goes hand in hand. argue that Christianity is not like that. It's not based in one language and culture, but from the very early days of the church, it was multi-ethnic, and that's such an important foundation. And that therefore increases choice and increases what church will look like in different forms in different nations.

Will 24:49

yeah, from very early on, the New Testament was written down in, Greek, the lingua franca of the day, so that it could, spread easily, through multiple cultures at that time. the early church, had a debate about whether people needed to become ethnically Jewish before they could come to the church, and determined no, that people could be Greek and Roman believers and still be, fully Christian. So very early on, you see this, kind of translatability of the gospel, the way that it can, take root in different cultures. and that is so different, from many other, religions, especially historically, the pattern that you see of religious conquest

Matt 26:12

Yeah. and even today then when we look at missionaries, of course, You and I have both been workers on the field, but we've also met hundreds of workers, missionaries around the world and studied our history. we do find that when you look at local culture, local languages, even at the tribal level, it's the missionaries that are saying, "Hey, we can protect your language. Let's get it written down. your culture. Let's elevate your language, your music." And so often the missionaries have been at the forefront of education and language preservation and all those kinds of things. do you go into some of that in your book as well later on?

Will 26:45

yes. especially with what you just said, I think of William Carey, who is one of the most famous examples of a missionary who, did so many of those things in terms of both, advocating for positive cultural change in terms of his advocacy, against the practice of widow burning, sati in India, and then his impact on, education and elevating local languages. before he came, the East India Company was, just trying to train, local workers in English, making English the language of education, and William Carey said, "No, let's make these local languages the language of education." And the impact that had subsequently on, literature there that's a well-known example, but there are, so many other stories like that as well.

Matt 27:25

I'm interested that you mentioned sati, the practice of widow burning. Can you explain what that is to those who don't know about it? Because that also is such an important point when you were talking about colonialism and mission, because people say to us, "Oh, going out there to change someone's culture is wrong. that's their thing. That's their culture. What right do we have to want to see someone's culture change?"

Will 27:48

yeah, so there, historically was a practice in India where, if a man died, his widow would be, burned alive, together with the man's, body on a, funeral pyre. this was a, very widespread practice, very, entrenched in the culture in some ways. And so when William Carey first arrived in India, British missionary, he, saw this practice very early on and decided that he was going to, try to, be a voice for change. So he and his team, did a lot of research. they canvassed an area, around where they were living and documented, many cases, how widespread it was. they started publishing this in local newspapers in local languages, by the way, and as well as, advocating with the East India Company, advocating, in Parliament, in England. and also, involving some local people, in the campaign as well who were trying to change the practice, and, eventually, got the East India Company to ban the practice, within their territory. There are other examples like that in missionary history as well. in China, believers as well as local Chinese believers were, very involved, in the 19th century in ending the practice of women's foot binding.

Matt 29:02

Yeah. just explain the foot binding

Will 29:04

foot binding was also a, cultural practice, in China, where, it was considered a mark of beauty where, some aristocratic women would, as they were growing up, as they were young girls, their feet would be tied and wrapped up, to where, the front part of the foot would turn underneath the back part of the foot, rendering them, unable to walk on their own. and, strangely, this was, like I said, considered a mark of beauty, a mark of status. And, when missionaries were there in the 19th century, they also, decided they wanted to try to, have a, positive impact on ending this practice. but like I said, Chinese believers were also very involved. there were some Chinese churches and believers who, made pledges and vows that they would not, subject their children to this practice. it changed, I would say, in an organic way. Chinese people deciding, not to do it largely because of the influence of Chinese Christians

Matt 29:58

Yeah. across the world, whether we look at, jungle societies where child sacrifice has been practiced for a long time or cannibalism, I think it just breaks down this very naive idea that you have this, "Oh, there's a pristine culture out there that ought not to be touched and changed because anthropologically it's so interesting, and we can just look from a distance and study, but we mustn't touch or impact it." partly that's nonsense because we're always changing culture. for a start. with any moral standpoint, whether you're a secular worker in the, British Foreign Office, you're making comments and you're putting influence on other countries to fall in line with your current moral standpoint, the now moment of morality that we have these days, 2026. influencing cultures around the world and influencing other people. it's crazy to say that we don't influence or we're not to influence. the question is, what are we bringing? nationhood, our own nationality, or are we implanting the kingdom of God and good moral practices? And of course, it's not a paternalistic thing uniquely to be challenging other cultures. We should always be challenging our own culture too

Will 31:06

Yes, absolutely. That's well said. I think, every culture, they reflect both, the image of God and the fallenness, the sinfulness of humanity in different ways. I spoke earlier about how Afghan culture reflects the image of God in ways that Western culture doesn't in terms of, the hospitality and the grace. and certainly, there are, things that need to change, influence of sin in many ways, in Western culture. so I look at missions as you're trying to spread, God's culture. I'm not trying to bring Western culture or American culture or anything like this, but God's culture. And, in cases like, we talked about in India, that it's God's culture that all people are made in God's image and human life is valuable. That's, the cultural value, that, you're trying to bring

Matt 31:51

Yeah. and that's sometimes we have to work hard about uncoupling what is Western culture and what is biblical culture. that's a common thing missionaries wrestle with. If we're from South Korea, if we're from China and we're going to Africa, we have to figure out, wait, I doing this because it's biblical? Am I doing this just 'cause it's my cultural background or my family background? And that's part of the challenge of what we do. we can't pretend everyone's culture lives in a vacuum.

Will 32:16

Yes

Matt 32:16

other really important thing that I think you address in your book is this matter, and you mentioned it earlier in a slightly different way, but agency. this, very patronizing view which has been said by the post-colonial angst guys, in academia. They say that, "Oh, the gospel came to Africa and you forced it upon all these African people, and it was unfair, and you were just there stealing the land." there's an element of truth there. Of course, we have to wrestle with that. But also it's a disservice to our African brothers and sisters all over the world to say that Christianity was forced upon you. Can you speak into that, that role of agency?

Will 32:55

yes, absolutely. I think that is really, a key point for people to understand in terms of, addressing this issue and concern about colonialism because, as you said, many people who come with this criticism have a pretty low view of people's agency, in a kind of demeaning way, suggest that indigenous people who come to Christ, that they've been brainwashed, that they've just been, really awed and impressed with the power and the technology of people coming from the West, and they've had ulterior motives in some ways. testimonies of indigenous believers, and again, even in the colonial era, really challenge that idea. as you said, there certainly can be truth to it, and it's something that missionaries have wrestled with in every generation, something to be careful about. I think particularly when it comes to the colonial era, there can be a misconception that missionaries would show up in the village, surrounded by soldiers and protected by soldiers and things like this. But in most cases, even during the colonial era, I would say that missionaries, put themselves in quite vulnerable positions relative to the people that they were living amongst. there was even a case, if you look at Hudson Taylor in China and his organization, the China Inland Mission, he, specifically encouraged the missionaries with his organization not to seek out protection from, Western governments. in the work that they were doing, they were going out into, parts of remote China where, colonial powers, governments, militaries were not present. So it's something that missionaries were attuned to even then, they were conscious of. I would say the reason for that is because in every era, if missionaries truly understand the gospel, they don't want false conversions. They want people to genuinely come to Christ, to not be influenced, to come to Christ for the wrong reasons or for material gain or anything like this. That was something that, my team also tried to be careful with on the field.

Matt 34:48

that's good. Yeah, it's true. I think, especially these days, we're very cautious about importing our own cultural models. and we really think about, yeah, decoupling culture and kingdom. I think, the modern-day missionary is very keen to see indigenous movements start with indigenous And actually, we mustn't play down the role that local believers have in being the ones who start the church planting movement. So often today, the outsider, whether he comes from Romania or Kazakhstan into a new country where the gospel hasn't been proclaimed, might find one or two locals who come to faith, but the locals are the ones who spread the gospel through family networks and across the country. And often, most of those believers have no clue that there was a foreigner involved at any and that goes way back even into the colonial era. People like Sadhu Sundar Singh in India, and the influence of, Watchman Nee in China. Some of these incredible locals who just were so impactful on their own nations. So it's not just the outsider, it's a very much a partnership thing, isn't it?

Will 35:55

absolutely. and again, you also see that, in the colonial era. there were some cases, that I read about in my research where a Western missionary would show up and be surprised to find a church already there that some local person had started

Matt 36:09

will, your book has been published or is about to be published? Where have we And tell us the title of the book and how people can find it

Will 36:17

I've signed a contract with, Christian Focus Publications out of the UK. I'm currently on a, final editing pass of the book, and, I will deliver the manuscript to the publisher in September. I'm sure there will be a subsequent editing process. and then I would guess maybe, sometime, late this year or early next year as far as the book coming out. people can find me and get a preview of the content on my website, which is willmaxson-author.com. Maxson spelled M-A-X-S-O-N. and, hopefully the book will be out soon

Matt 36:54

Great. We'll put all the details in the show notes and then by the time some people are listening to this episode, it may even be out, and so I'll have a link to where they can get it from as well. Great. So Will, any favorite stories you've got, perhaps one or two that you could share with us from your research and from the book as we come into land?

Will 37:14

one of the stories that I'm especially excited about in the book that I haven't seen in any of the other, missions history book, comes from the story of John G. Paton, which his autobiography is my favorite historical missionary story. If your listeners aren't familiar, he was a 19th century Scottish Presbyterian missionary who went to, islands in the South Pacific that today, comprise the nation of Vanuatu his autobiography, just incredible, just, dripping with passionate love for God on page after page. Exciting, dramatic, at times funny. but one little-known aspect, of his career, that you may not recognize in his autobiography if you don't know the wider historical context at the time, was his campaign against, something that historians today call scientific racism. And I'll put scientific... in air quotes. because this is what, historians, use to describe this 19th century idea. So scientific racism was this, Darwinian-inspired idea, that became popular in some circles, especially academic elites in 19th century Europe. and the idea posited that different racial groups were actually at differing stages of evolution. And it was actually, evangelical Christians at the time who were most opposed to this idea because they believed the Bible, they believed that all people are equal, that all people are made in God's image. and it's really an interesting contrast because, this idea was growing in Europe at around the same time that Paton was establishing his mission in the South Pacific. so there was this man in, England named James Hunt. he had been a member of the, um, Ethnological Society of London, which was an organization that, tended to attract a lot of evangelical Christians and people who were interested in missions, supported missions. James Hunt, he was a big, proponent of scientific racism. he didn't like that organization's, Christian emphasis. He thought these Christians who were interested in missions were, naive science deniers because they believed that all people were made in God's image. he basically thought that, mission work is dumb and pointless because he thought that, non-white people, non-Europeans, that they don't have spiritual capacity, for, capacity for religious beliefs, capacity to believe the gospel. And so he thought mission work is basically like going and trying to share the gospel with cats and dogs. really terrible. So he broke off from the Ethnological Society. He founded his own organization, The Anthropological Society of London, where he made publications promoting these ideas, defending slavery in the US. really awful. So what does that have to do with John Paton? So when you read his autobiography, and again, this is easy to miss if you don't, know about this wider historical context. But, when you do know that context, you can see that Patton was very aware of these ideas and these debates taking place in Europe, because every time he tells a testimony, of an indigenous believer coming to Christ, he frames it as a direct rebuttal to people who had these, ideas about scientific racism. and so I've got a couple quotes, from his biography. at one point, he's telling the story of this man, who had been a close, co-laborer in the gospel with him for many years, who had passed away. and this man, had been a, cannibal chief in his past, came to Christ actually through another indigenous evangelist before John Patton had even arrived on the mission field. and this is what Patton says about him He says, Thus died a man who had been a cannibal chief, but by the grace of God and the love of Jesus changed, transfigured into a character of light and beauty. What think ye of this, ye scoffers at missions? What think ye of this, ye skeptics as to the reality of conversion? When I have read or heard the shallow objections of irreligious scribblers and talkers hinting that there was no reality in conversions and that mission effort was but waste, oh, how my heart has yearned to plant them just one week on Tanna," that's the island he was on, with the natural man all around and only the one spiritual man in the person of the converted Abraham," that was the man's name, "nursing them, feeding them, saving them for the love of Jesus, that I might just learn how many hours it took to convince them that Christ in man was a reality after all. All the skepticism of Europe would hide its head in fullest shame, and all its doubts would dissolve under one glance of the new light that Jesus, and Jesus alone, pours from the converted cannibal's eye." really beautiful testimony. there was another case where he was, on a fundraising tour in Australia and, during this tour, went on a campaign, against scientific racism. at one point he encountered an Aboriginal folk healer, and he purchased some little stone idols from him. and then he would take these around on his tour and show them to everybody to display that these people do have spiritual capacity. another quote from his book, about that tour and showing people these little idols, he says, "Thus it has been demonstrated on the spot that the Aborigines were not brutes incapable of knowing God, but human beings yearning after a God of some kind. Nor do I believe that any tribe of men will be found who, when their language and customs are rightly interpreted, will not display their consciousness of the need of God." I love those stories. again, I think it's a beautiful example of one, how, again, the person in the story with the missionary heart was the one who was advocating most strongly, for indigenous people. I think it also shows, why nuance is needed in, approaching colonial missionary history because, Patton, I'm sure he had some cultural blind spots. some of his ideas of contextualization were maybe not as up to date, compared to what, missionaries would do today. when it really, came down to it, he advocated for, the humanity of his people when other people, were trying to discount it.

Matt 43:24

Thank you. Yeah, Will, I love that. I think that leads nicely to a quotation from your introduction to the book that I wanted to read as we close. You say, "Throughout history, missionaries have not only preached the gospel, but also defended indigenous cultures, championed justice, and opposed colonial exploitation. In these pages, you'll encounter missionaries who courageously fought for the dignity and sovereignty of those they served." I love that 'cause that is the heart of mission. These are people around the world that we're asking for God's heart for. We're asking for God's compassion for because He loves them. the missionary endeavor is a reflection of the heart of God. I think you also talk about how Jesus himself was, in a sense, a missionary sent learning the language and the culture of a particular people in a particular historical context, demonstrating the Father's love, and of course, doing so much more when it comes to the cross and resurrection. But He's our model, yeah, not coming to break and shatter cultures, but to elevate and, a sense, glorify and redeem the cultures of the world. Yeah, Will, it's been a joy to be with you. Thank you I'm so glad you've written this book. It does feel very opportune, very timely. And, may the Lord bless that distribution, publishing, everything that's got to come over the next year.

Will 44:43

Yeah. Thank you very much. it's been a joy

Matt 44:45

All right. God bless, brother. Good to see you.

Will 44:47

you. Bye

Speaker 44:50

Thanks for joining us today, guys. Do get in touch if you want to share how God is speaking to you through the podcast, or if you want to partner with us in raising up more workers for the harvest. The easiest way to do that is to go onto the show notes of any episode and click on support the show, where you can become a regular partner by giving even a few dollars a month. And that would be a great encouragement to us here. But you can also email me personally, matt@frontiers.org.uk. And let's finish with a quote from Ryan Robertson: "A right worship and theology of Christ leads to a desire to make him known to the ends of the earth. Whether that means you go or send, you can't have a right Christology and doxology and lack the desire To see his excellencies proclaimed globally do join us next time to hear from more ordinary people serving our extraordinary God in some of the toughest parts of the world