Ep. 104 - A Yorkshireman Heads East

In this episode Matt interviews Andy, a straight-talking northern guy who loves Jesus and loves sharing the gospel with Muslims. 

He and his wife spent several years in a tough surveillance state in Central Asia, learning the local language and figuring out how to communicate God's love to local Muslims. It was a tough environment and eventually they and various others were forced to leave the country. 

They now are based in the UK, working with refugees and they continue to share the hope that is within them.

Transcript

Andy 0:03

And it's also, a-alongside those times where it's, a bit annoying, depressing, difficult, actually, it's a huge privilege, just to think of the number of people that I've sat with and said, you heard this before?" They're like, "No." these people have never, ever heard anything about Jesus. And what, an amazing privilege to be able to share with them the hope of the Lord Jesus and, what the cross means, what the resurrection means

Matt 0:27

hi guys, welcome back to Raw Mission, the podcast where we hear the stories of ordinary men and women who've experienced the goodness of God and who've responded to His call, His command, and His invitation to take the good news to the least reached. I'm Matt, your host, and today I'm joined by Andy, a Yorkshireman from a rural working-class background who's given his life to inviting Muslims to follow Jesus. The Lord led him and his wife to spend several years in a surveillance state in Central Asia, where sharing the gospel had to be done in various creative ways Well, welcome, Andy. It's really good to have you on the podcast. you're speaking to us from the north of England, is it?

Andy 1:06

Yeah, that's right. Thanks for having me, Matt

Matt 1:09

and did you grow up there?

Andy 1:10

yes, I did. Yeah. I went to uni around, this area as well,

Matt 1:15

well tell us your sort of background story. How did you get into global mission, God's heart for the nations, and all of that?

Andy 1:21

So it kind of all started really the first months or even few weeks of university. before I arrived, my dad actually said to me, You should join in with the international student outreach at the university." I was kinda like, "Nah, I don't really wanna do that. You know, it'll be too difficult. People won't understand what I'm saying. I won't understand what they're saying, different languages and different accents." and I started going to the ski club. I just thought, "Oh, I'm going to do something really fun, really different that I've never done before. I'll start doing that on Monday nights." and that was exactly the night when the international student outreach was happening. So I was like, I'm not gonna do that." And then probably the second or third week, at my student church. I still remember it very clearly. It was a talk on and the minister said, "What really matters is preaching Christ." And I just felt really convicted by that, and I felt God really saying should listen to my dad. I should go along to this, international students outreach event. I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea how to talk to people from different cultures. I come from a very, rural working class background where there's no ethnic minorities at all. so it was totally new to me. my parents knew missionaries, and we'd probably have people over, for Sunday lunch if they visited our church. But I was like, don't know anything about this really."

Matt 2:37

Yeah.

Andy 2:37

so yeah, God really changed my heart in a very, miraculous way. that one incident was kind of life-changing really.

Matt 2:44

So you gave up the ski club and started doing the international outreach. Was that run by Friends International who are really good at that kind of thing in the UK?

Andy 2:51

was, yeah. so yeah, very good experience and yeah, it's still going in our city.

Matt 2:57

Brilliant. And what was it like then for you interacting with internationals for the first time? Was it as awkward as you imagined it would be?

Andy 3:03

I think it was at the beginning, yeah. And I, didn't really know what to say. but I always remember one of the things that the leader said was, Become interested and interesting." So yeah, have things to talk about yourself and be interested in other people. And I guess the being interested in other people is a gospel thing as well, isn't it? If we, are Christians, if we believe that God made people in his image and we care about them, we want to be interested in them, interested in their culture and their lives. So yeah, that helped me.

Matt 3:31

Yeah. What was the international mix in the city where you were studying then? there a lot of Muslims folks from the Arab world or more from Central Asia?

Andy 3:41

there was quite a mix. there was a lot of Chinese, which was quite common in the UK. There was definitely quite a lot from Malaysia. I got to know, a Malay, student, Japanese, a whole mixture really. Yeah.

Matt 3:55

Yeah.

Andy 3:56

Indians as well,

Matt 3:57

Okay. And how did your story develop? Yeah, go on from there

Andy 4:01

of the interesting things as well that happened was the very first, international student event that I went to, I met my wife there. my now wife. we didn't actually get married, or even start dating until, like, another four years after that. but we were both really interested in that. Her story is, starts a lot further back, I think when she was eight years old, God spoke to her about being involved in international mission. So she was probably quite far in front of me. But, it was kind of a growing sense of the international outreach, learning what mission was, what God's heart for the nations was about. that was kind of a developing process all the time. So by the time I graduated, my wife and I, got married, we're like, "Okay, dedicate our lives as far as we can to being involved in sharing the gospel with, unreached people groups somewhere."

Matt 4:52

What did you study at university?

Andy 4:54

Mechanical engineering.

Matt 4:56

And okay, so you get married, and did you head overseas fairly quickly, or was there still quite a few things to do before that happened?

Andy 5:03

No, we kind of left the university city where we, met and it was good for my wife's training to do some more, work and some work experience. I thought that would be the same for me, so we thought we'd, get used to being married, get used to having a normal job, in inverted commas, and be involved in a different church. I guess we were hoping that we'd, find a church that would be willing to send us. So that was probably a two or three-year process and our church, uh, were very willing and encouraging to send us, but they said, "You should go to Bible college for at least a year first." So we did that,

Matt 5:38

Yeah, how was that experience? you know, take it for granted in some ways that, oh, that should be a good experience, but not everyone, I suppose would say, "Ah, that's what I wanted to do," so it felt like holding us back or yeah, how did it go for you?

Andy 5:50

Yeah, I think it did feel a little bit like, we wanna get going now. but actually it was a really wise from our church. there were lots of things that happened during that time, as well. Not just the training which was helpful, being around, people who'd been overseas. that was all really good. But, during that time we found out we couldn't have children, so that was a huge thing to work through, not just that year, but afterwards as well. And then, towards the end of that time, my mum was diagnosed with cancer, that was kind of a huge thing. So, like, actually being at home for that time was, yeah, I think God's providence really. and, yeah, my mom's diagnosis was, g-good in the sense that they said, "Well, we think we can fix this." And actually, she's now cured, she's healthy, so we praise God for that. But that period was quite stressful leaving. basically the last time I saw my mom before we got on the plane was she was having her first, chemotherapy treatment. So that was particularly fun. But I think we were all in one mind that, God will look after them. God has called us into ministry overseas. and actually, what can we really do being at home? Probably not a lot other than just to, to sit with her. so yeah, joined a team, which was fantastic. So our first couple of years was predominantly focused on language learning and culture learning and, talking about different things to do with ministering cross-culturally. So that was fantastic

Matt 7:15

Did you have brothers and sisters as well at home?

Andy 7:18

Nope, I'm an only child, so that definitely made things difficult. that's one of the things that I remember as part of process of, learning about mission. I remember a very powerful talk at our church on, where Jesus says, You leave your family. Let the dead bury their own dead," which is quite a shocking phrase, but, That really felt for me like, actually, yeah, I do need to be willing to leave my family for the sake of the gospel, even though that was really, really difficult

Matt 7:49

So hard, but I guess also it helped if your parents were believers and your wife's parents were believers, and if you were all of one mind that this is God's will for you, then that's gonna help a lot

Andy 8:01

Yeah. that was a huge thing really. and a, massive blessing, from the Lord. I've got other friends who that's not the case for them and it is a certainly a stress

Matt 8:10

Okay, so you're getting at this point closer and closer to leaving for the field. You'd found an organization to go with, one s- similar to ours, great friends of ours, but not our organization. And how did that sense of where, where should we go? You know, how did you get to that position of deciding where to go?

Andy 8:28

I think it was because we were interested in the culture of Central Asia. We'd met people from that country, before when we were, involved in the international outreach. seemed really natural, but also we're thinking, "Is that the right place?" And then we discovered about a particular ethnic minority in that group that were unreached, and it just seemed to tick all the boxes. went on a, survey trip for of weeks to have a look at various teams, which was really helpful. It just seemed really obvious there was to join launch language and culture team to start with would be great for us. So that's what we did.

Matt 9:05

Yeah, so what was it like sort of landing there as a young couple for the first time?

Andy 9:11

culture shock can be very stressful. you don't know the language, you don't know the culture, you've gotta set up your life. You don't know what you're doing. but the idea of the launch team was to help us to get our house set up, help us to get into, the place there, so we could really focus on language. So they had a really good setup for us, and then it was like, "We're gonna require of you 30 hours a week of language learning across, "university self-study, practice with other people." So bit was actually very intense, but I think very profitable as well. that's how we started

Matt 9:45

And how were the initial experiences? was the weather very different or the food or, I don't know, what were the kind of real challenges apart from the difficulty of starting a language from scratch?

Andy 9:57

I guess everything was so different. you're overwhelmed the cars are different, the way that you cross the road is different. the normal parts of life, where you eat are different. in the UK you have salt and pepper on the table, but in another country you have something else on the table. All those things are very different. So it's just interesting but also, trying to work out what is this? what's normal? I think food is a bit of a big thing cause I remember one time we were just learning how to just operate in normal life, and we're getting food from the student canteen. So my wife and I were in the same class along with another guy, and I was really excited that I'd learnt the word for rice and they hadn't. So I went to the canteen and ordered rice, and they were kinda stuck with, yeah, I think probably noodles or something a bit easier to say. So I was, really happy, and they were like, "Oh, what? How come you didn't tell us that?" But then I was the one who got food poisoning from the dodgy rice, and they were all okay. That was a bit of a feature to get used to as well.

Matt 10:55

just something else to humble you apart from everything else going on.

Andy 10:58

Yeah, that's right. you feel like a baby really, 'cause you can just say your name and a few words.

Matt 11:04

Yeah.

Andy 11:05

yeah, that's how I felt

Matt 11:06

Yeah, and sometimes you can look at that in hindsight and kinda laugh at it a little bit. But at the time it's pretty depressing, isn't it? You feel pretty lonely, pretty isolated. I can't really make friends. I've lost my personality. I can't really make jokes anymore because I've got no humor. I'm trying to learn the basics of communication. So it is, it's really humbling and quite frustrating. People look at you like you're an idiot. yeah, so it's a big sacrifice, those early years, and it's just boring. Language, language, language, day after day after day. feeling like, "How am I being any use to Jesus here? I'm just doing nothing. I can't even talk."

Andy 11:43

Yeah. One, one of the good things during that time though was that, because we were in a university, I think probably... I mean, not every country in the world, but there are many countries around the world that value English, a subject, as a language. So there were certain people on the university campus who were interested in... They were maybe studying it or they wanted to study it. So there was a bit of an opportunity to chat with fellow students, who could speak some English. So we didn't want to do that too much because we wanted to learn the language, but that kind of language exchange thing worked really well and was a good balance to the, intensity of the language learning

Matt 12:22

Yeah. And this was what? 15 years ago, something like that? Because those days you didn't have all the apps for translation that are so easy to use now and actually speak to someone

Andy 12:33

Do you know, I remember we went on our survey trip, and I didn't have a smartphone, and all of the people, all of the mission workers there iPhones. I was like, what are these missionaries? why have they got all this money to buy an iPhone, smartphone?" That's like, shouldn't you be, like, living a bit poorer than that? Until I discovered that there was a fantastic, very specific translation app for the smartphone that was absolutely brilliant. and then, when we got back I bought a smartphone straight away and started using it 'cause it was so helpful. that was kind of interesting. Yeah, my own prejudice a little bit there. But, also seeing yeah, the growth of the technology and how that kind of changes how you learn and how people interact as well.

Matt 13:17

Yeah, I didn't have that option back in those days. I mean, mobile phones weren't even available in the mountains where I was for quite a while. But I kind of wonder these days, it's so useful, but does it hinder your own language learning because you can rely on an app to do some of the work for you? I suppose you just learn how to do both, learn at your own pace and also when you really need to, go to the phone

Andy 13:38

Yeah, I I guess it was like a dictionary app, that was kind of very specialized. So enjoyed doing that and doing flashcards as well for different words.

Matt 13:46

Yeah

Andy 13:47

with mobile phones, there's obviously a danger that you pull it out and flick up a YouTube Short and just mess about and waste your life. actually, if you're learning a language, if you can just anytime get out your phone and do some learning, that's actually a benefit. And I think probably nowadays with, probably not even Google Translate, but some of the, large language models, it's kinda quite interesting in terms of you can begin to get started in talking to people, even if you don't share the same language,

Matt 14:18

Yeah, it's crazy. Even this week, a young guy here was showing me what they used on a short-term mission trip last year. And even just using AI these days, you can do so much in full conversation. He was speaking to me in English, I was speaking to him back in Urdu, and it, it was perfect, the translation. And it was pure conversation. It was doing it audio. you didn't have to even read it. So I'm amazed at even in the last six months, a year, the speed of which language help on a phone is available. yeah give us some more stories of life out there in Central Asia, either when you first arrived or how did it develop? What was the security like? Because I know it's quite a tough country to talk freely about faith.

Andy 14:58

Yeah, that's right, as most countries in Central Asia are. it certainly was restricted, and so our main focus, was storytelling, or, little group. because there's not really, an opportunity so much to have big gatherings, you can't really advertise, oh, you know, come to this church event. That was the main way that we found was, good to start to introduce people to Jesus. so what I mean by storytelling is learning a short Bible story off by heart, then over lunch or anywhere, basically, saying, "Would you like to hear a story? have you heard this story?" And obviously with Muslims, it's quite natural. They're interested in the stories of the prophets. So that's a very easy way to start a conversation and, yeah, introduce people to the Bible. because you're doing it one-to-one, you're not raising your profile with the police, or other authorities who might want to say, don't do that."

Matt 15:57

Yeah. What were some of your favorite stories, your go-to stories?

Andy 16:00

I really like the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. I think that's really interesting, for anybody, but particularly for people from a Muslim background so parables of Jesus, miracles of Jesus, those would be the go-to ones that, yeah, we'd learn and share

Matt 16:18

And would you tend to do that word for word from the scripture, or would you in a sense con-contextually like Martin Goldsmith used to do, where he would change the Pharisee to an imam and tell the story in a sort of more general way? How would you do it?

Andy 16:32

I'd generally wanna stick as close to the Bible as possible, but yeah, I would do some explanation. So I'm trying to think the exact words I would use. I'd probably something rather than say a I think I would say something like a very pious religious person. 'Cause you know, Pharisee, unless you understand the historical time of Jesus, that word's probably gonna go over your head. And for the tax collector, I'd probably say like corrupt tax collector, so there's a bit of, relevant explanation in there.

Matt 16:59

That's good. yeah, I think storytelling is so important. one of the trainings we do is all about my story, my testimony, your story, so listening to the person in front of you and really understanding who they are, and then of course bringing in God's story. but yeah, give us some more about how your storytelling went out there.

Andy 17:18

I think it's great 'cause you can just use that, anytime, anywhere. So I remember my wife told the story of the lost sheep while she was riding on a motorbike with a friend out onto the steppe, with all the sheep around, so it made her think of that story. I remember talking to another friend. He invited us to go to the sauna. We're playing chess in the sauna, telling stories from Genesis, on the train, anywhere basically. But I think the main thing that we did in order to try and meet new people was the student canteen at lunch or at breakfast and, sit down next to people and say, "Hey, can we join you?" And strike up a conversation. If they were interested, then share a story, with them. So I did that with my teammates, quite a lot

Matt 18:04

And what was the general response? Have they ever met a Christian before, most of these guys? are there any local churches in that city where you were studying? You know, tell us a bit more about the general environment and their own response to hearing somebody talking about faith.

Andy 18:19

So most of the people there had probably never met a Christian, had never encountered the Bible before, have got no concept from it apart from of Islamic revisionist version, of events in the Bible Having said that, just like a lot of cities around the world these days, there's often a mix of ethnic groups. So there were ethnic groups in our city that did have some Christians in them. and I was part of our team. Other people in our team were involved in helping to train them, helping to inspire them to reach out to Muslims as well. But there's such a big divide between the ethnic group where there are some Christians and the Muslim group. it's kind of very hard for them, just like it's hard for, British Christians sometimes to understand, how can I share faith with, British Muslims? So it's quite similar to that. Um, in terms of the response that we got, I think you talk about in your podcast, the good, the bad, and the ugly of mission. I think we, we definitely got that in people's responses and, uh, probably the, the parable of the sow is one that springs to mind. there's all kinds of responses when people hear God's word. so I remember one really, encouraging one was, a guy called Lot. So me and my wife, actually, we joined this volunteering group to help disabled orphans, and it wasn't that well organized. I didn't know what I was doing. and language-wise it was difficult. but it was just a way, how can we do something positive to help people? How can we meet other people? Anyway, so Lot was part of this group as well, and afterwards the volunteering group went out for lunch, and I got to know him. I said, "Oh, oh, that's an interesting name." he said, "Oh, the name comes from a prophet in the Quran. Do you know?" And I said to him, "Well, do you know the story?" And he was like, "No, not, not really." So I just said, "Well, would you like to

Matt 20:11

read

Andy 20:11

some of it together? Would you like to hear it?" So I don't know whether that was actually one of the stories that I'd learnt, but, we actually, yeah, met and read through it. So that was a really amazing God-given opportunity to go through those stories, with him, and we got pretty far looking at some stories in Genesis and then When we left that city, I passed him on to another, believer who could continue to share more with him. So that was just really positive. when we pray that God will put people on our path who are open, who are wanting to hear. Yeah, my friend Lot is a person who I think about So yeah, that was a good, there's bad ones as well. Some people clearly don't want to talk or are told not to talk. So one time, me and my teammate, we went and sat with a group of students, and immediately they said, "Oh, we've been told not to talk to foreigners 'cause all they wanna do is to spread religion." It's like, okay, well, you know, what, what do you, what do you say to that? So, that was, pretty discouraging when things like that happened. And then there's a kind of the ugly times as well. I remember this one time, I think went out for breakfast, and, I can't remember what I ordered. But anyway, like I was obviously like half asleep, and I dropped the whole breakfast, like all over the floor. I was like, oh, so embarrassed in front of like the whole canteen. And then we went to sit down next to some people, with just praying that we'd be able to share something. We sat down, and they got straight back up. there's a whole mixture of responses that you get, and probably the negative ones outweigh the positive ones in terms of the number of times. But, if you find that one person who God has put in your path, that can be a opportunity to see somebody discipled

Matt 21:43

Yeah, that's true. There's a scripture somewhere, is it in Daniel maybe, about treasure in the dark places. And that's, kind of the life we live out there, isn't it, sometimes? A lot of rejection, a lot of people not interested in what you wanna say or deeply entrenched in their own religious systems and everything they've been taught from childhood. But just occasionally, yeah, there's someone God's been working on, someone disillusioned with their own, faith system. and yeah, doors open and they wanna get into scripture. And of course, if God has been preparing the way with some kind of dream or vision, then it's even better because, yeah, they're much further down that path. But yeah, those are the folks we're looking for.

Andy 22:21

that's right. And it's also, a-alongside those times where it's, a bit annoying, depressing, difficult, actually, it's a huge privilege, just to think of the number of people that I've sat with and said, you heard this before?" They're like, "No." these people have never, ever heard anything about Jesus. And what, an amazing privilege to be able to share with them the hope of the Lord Jesus and, what the cross means, what the resurrection means

Matt 22:45

Yeah, that's right. And even just by being there, you know, you're speaking the gospel to them because you've given up a lot and you're learning their language and you're loving their culture as best you can. what's neutral about the culture for sure. yeah, so there's a lot that you'll never know the impact that that's had on people. You know, some of the folks we used to work with, especially during the earthquake work in, Pakistan in the tribal areas, they've been told since childhood that folks in the West are Satan. You know, they are part of the great Satan and there's nothing good about them. So just by being there and showing some kindness and some love, that's a great start, that is breaking down some of the false ideas they have about who the people of Jesus are, I

Andy 23:27

Yeah, that's right. it kind of reminds me of a, a story with, one of my friends, we'll call him Waqas. he was one of my language tutors, and we got to be good friends. and it's very interesting to see how he reacted to, I guess, like normal Christian, life, how we do life as Christians. So, I remember the first time we actually talked anything about the scriptures, he came round to, I think, my teammate's house, and we had some food. I said, "Hey, would you like to read the Bible together?" And we opened Genesis 1, and we got to, man was made in the image of God. And he got up from the seat and was like, "Oh no, this is wrong. This is not what we believe." It was kind of quite animated and not angry, but, like, very animated and that was his first response. But then, get to be good friends and you do other things together, have fun together, and he, invited us to break, you know, the fast at Ramadan together and, I don't think he really understood what it meant to be a Christian. His, his view was, very warped. often many Muslims see the, decline in morals in the West and associate that with Christianity or politics. And so I think that's probably what he would think. Anyway, we, went to do, an, overnight trip with a group of classmates, and he invited me along. to a tourist spot in the mountains. it was really good, just hanging out, having fun, doing some walks around the lake, and we played board games. They teach me how to play this particular board game from that country. It was really fun. so we were playing up till quite late at night and then, the thing that he noticed was he was just really surprised that I got up in the morning at normal time and just went to pray. and he was like, "Oh, that's interesting." And then a few years later, actually, it's probably like two years ago, he actually came to the UK. He had a opportunity to come. He stayed with us and had a bit of time here and, Some of the things I've been doing, is been involved with refugee ministry in the UK, and while Wakas was here, I had to deliver basically a new baby package to some refugees I know. I'd not even organized it. But they'd just had a new baby and there's other people who were doing all the donations and stuff. So I just went to this, yeah, the charity. It's a Christian charity that does it, picked up the stuff and took it to him with Wakas 'cause he was around at the time. he was absolutely flabbergasted the way that Christians were treating, refugees and poor people. He said, "We would never do that in our country. We would be, yeah, just kind of very negative towards them." So- That's very simple, Matt. just praying n- normally as a Christian and just doing some normal help for vulnerable people, which is Just normal things that Christians do. And he said afterwards, "Oh, now I know you're a real Christian. not just a, a nominal Christian." This, this is like I've known him for 10 years at this point, and it took him that long to realize. So that's kind of interesting to me that it, you know, it does take a long time for people to begin to, understand what real Christianity is. we talked a lot about the scriptures as well during this time, Yeah, very important. So, you Jesus said, "Let, your light shine before men."

Matt 26:28

Yeah

Andy 26:28

And actually, it doesn't require, you know, like a super, super missionary. You know, some people are really clever, good at language learning, good at preaching. I'm not super at language learning or, particularly good in one area. What would be really great is if all around the world we had ordinary Christians living their lives, showing what it means to follow Christ, I think has a huge impact on people

Matt 26:52

So true. and yeah, we can just pray, can't we, as we go that we'll meet some key people, and they may be the ones who take the gospel forwards. They may bring a whole village to Christ, a whole family to Christ. You know, that whole Philip and the Ethiopian story always comes to my mind, or Ananias and Saul. Yeah, we just wanna be there. We wanna be in the right place so the Lord can use us, and then who knows? Yeah, we'll keep... praying for this guy, Waqas, and maybe the Lord will appe- in a dream, and everything that you've been sowing into him will suddenly make sense. And he'll be soft towards that. Yeah. That's good

Andy 27:28

I think with him as well, the other thing is the multi-generational nature of it. So like, because for him, his, grandma influenced him very strongly and his father, and I think that's the case for many Muslims around the world, that there's a very strong cultural and family pull towards Islam, so for somebody to even entertain the possibility of, I could read the Bible, I could even just a look, see what it says, when it's-- been to them, "You don't do this. This is completely false. This is, something that we don't do." for him then to have, an openness and a knowledge that I know Christians, I know what they're like, then I'm kind of thinking, well, perhaps his son might not have the same family pressure, and you never know what would happen for their family yeah, as they grow.

Matt 28:16

Yeah, good point. Yeah, the different generations softening up. You know, the Lord is, is working in a whole culture over hundreds of years, and we never quite know the time when

Andy 28:26

Hmm

Matt 28:26

the gospel will really take root and start to spread. Yeah. No, that's good. Tell us about the role of apologetics and, and debate, because obviously that's not something you could do a lot of. You couldn't get into major arguments in a country where there's a lot of security and pressure, let alone the shame and honor culture as well. But was there ever a place where that was important for you?

Andy 28:51

I think there definitely is a place for that, and I think it also depends on your relationship with the person there, um, how far they are in terms of understanding Christianity. So I, I think probably you, Matt, and many of the, of your listeners will know that Muslims often have very, uh, similar sort of objections and questions to Christianity. You know, the Bible's been changed. how can Jesus possibly be the Son of God? isn't Muhammad spoken about in the Bible? salvation, be by grace 'cause then you can just do whatever you want. You know, these common questions that, keep coming up, and so I think we need to answer those. But I don't think you can do them the first time or even second time you meet people. I think there's gotta be a relationship of trust there there was one really very interesting experience that I had with my friend Ben. he'd actually met a lot of Christians, uh, in the past, and he was kind of interested in asking those kind of questions, and, know, we, we'd talk occasionally about that. Anyway, he, he actually invited me and my teammate to visit his, home village for a few days. Uh, so it was a five-hour drive through the desert. So we didn't really have any like evangelism plans or anything. We were just going with him, and He's from a poor village, and he said, "I wanna give some books back to my, primary school to, you know, to bless them." Ah, so that's a great thing, so we'll, we'll, we'll join him We, a, had a great time doing that, and he invited us back to his, very small village, and uh, lunch together, with some of his neighbors. was, there was probably, like, seven or eight people in the room, and then this another guy came into the room to eat with us, and he was turned out to be the, the village imam. And, you know, just getting to know us, asking about us and, pretty quickly found out we were Christians. So he started asking the classic questions from Islam, bringing up the classic objections to Christianity. Um, I think he said something like, "Oh, yeah, Christians believe that Jesus is God," which is wrong. And I tried to explain a little bit about it, and then he said, "Well, oh, you know, the scriptures have been changed." So at that point, I think Ben later, he said he was really nervous it was gonna turn into a massive argument. Ben started to talk to me, not in his language, in English, about the things that we'd talked about before, to say, "Hey, Andy, can you ask the imam this question? Can you ask him, you know, 'Have you ever read the Bible before?' Or can you ask him, 'Have you looked into the evidence for the reliability of the scripture?'" So Ben was asking me questions in English, which then I was translating into his language to ask the imam. So it's kind of Ben was going through me, even though he didn't need to, was because in that culture, Ben couldn't question a leader, an elder, he wanted to understand what would the response be. And I think, yeah, the, the imam didn't really have any particularly, Good answers. He admitted he never read the Bible before. and We had quite a long conversation, with Ben doing that. And then, you know, on the drive home at the end, Ben was really very fascinated by this, and he was like, "Yeah, I don't think he had good answers to that either." So I think in terms of apologetics, don't think it was probably that helpful for the imam. It's not gonna change his views. I didn't, I didn't know him. but for Ben, just to see how patiently tried to answer the questions, for him to be able to question his own culture and own, own religion in a kinda safe space, I think was really beneficial. now Ben's still not a Christian, but he's, he's had that opportunity to investigate further and to ask these important questions. So yeah, I think my summary is we do need to ans- the, apologetics type questions, but I think we've just gotta be careful about what the situation is. 'Cause you can, can really easily get people's backs up and annoy them, and actually it does a bit of a disservice to the gospel, even if we're

Matt 32:59

Yeah

Andy 33:00

presenting the truth. So yeah, how we speak the truth in love

Matt 33:50

Yeah, exactly. Always be prepared, right? Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is within you, but do it with gentleness and respect, 1 Peter 3:15 maybe. Yeah, so important. and we can still do that, have some really strong arguments, but we can do it gently, and we don't have to thereby attack Islam, attack and dishonor the, the sheikh or the imam in front of us. You know, there are lots of people watching, so he's, he's on edge as well at that moment. He's defending his own position in the village. He might be a leader. So yeah, it has to be done really carefully but lovingly, but just show that questions can be asked. And yeah, they will read between the lines that actually this guy doesn't know much. he's had a limited understanding of, yeah, all the holy books and so on. Good. Yeah, that's really interesting. Tell us about the deaf school. Was it a deaf school you were involved with?

Andy 34:41

deaf church really.

Matt 34:42

okay

Andy 34:43

yeah, that was very challenging. I think we'd only been learning the language for a year when In the international church, there was lady who asked myself and my wife, Would you willing to come and join this group about..." It was probably, like, five to 10 people, who were deaf, I think there's maybe half of them were maybe Christians, and the other half interested. we were a bit reluctant, I think because they weren't from the, Muslim ethnic group, but I, I think that was fine. But obviously deaf people, are unreached in an even bigger sense because of the difficulties in accessing, the scriptures as a deaf person. actually, my wife British Sign Language for her work. However, there's-- that's different to the sign language in the place where we lived. So we, we're just beginning to be able to have a conversation with words, and then we're asked, "Can you come and learn sign language?" And we were like, "What this is gonna be?" Anyway, we prayed about it, and we said yes. and yeah, we really felt, yeah, God's power in our weakness 'cause it was, really difficult. We'd go on, like, a Sunday afternoon after, you know, pretty intense language learning for the week. Then we'd have international church the whole morning. yeah, loads, loads of people and, have a long lunch, and then we'd go off. would wanna go for a sleep. We went off to try and learn sign language in a different language. But it was really cool just to be with people who, yeah, wanted to be together and wanted to learn, something from the Bible. There was one lady who was already a Christian, been baptized, and was basically signing Bible stories to the others, and we were joining in with that.

Matt 36:25

That sounds amazing. Yeah. I mean, it just shows so much of God's love, doesn't it? Because I think we take so much for granted in the West that, of course, we'll care for the disabled or we'll care for those, you know, who don't have access to this education or that. and yet there are many cultures around the world where, yeah, children with special needs or physical d- disabilities will just be shunned and ignored. And, and there'll be no provision made for them, and it's often the missionaries who start school. there, there were some Southern Baptists where we were in the north of Pakistan who were teaching by braille and all sorts of amazing stuff, for those who, were blind. It was wonderful

Andy 37:00

Yeah, absolutely

Matt 37:01

But it wasn't always just the challenge of learning sign language, was it, for you? There was also the electricity problems and some occasions where it was even harder

Andy 37:10

Yeah, so obviously when you are signing to people, you need to be able to see. Can't do it in the dark. And we ended up, at least at the start, having a party with our deaf church in the dark, which was a little bit frustrating, I have to say. electricity in developing countries is always a bit hit and miss, compared to in the UK. but I don't think it was particularly that. It was just For some reason our house the electrics kept going off, and it you couldn't like reset it at the house switch. It'd have to be like the whole building. And happened a few times, every week. I was just getting more and more frustrated with it. And yeah, obviously it affects all our neighbors as well, and it's basically our house for some reason that's tripping it And it happened one time when we had the deaf church to come round to our house for food. So we basically got all the, you know, electric stoves on trying to cook food for a group of people, and then the electric goes off, and then all the lights went off as well. So I was like, "Well, it's impossible to do this in the dark." I think we managed to find like one plug that worked or something, and then set up a lamp so people could see. but yeah, I found that very frustrating. And I, yeah, I just remember, y- not my best moment shouting at the electrician 'cause he's like, "Oh yeah, I know where the problem is, but I haven't got the switch to fix it. You have to go and buy the switch." I'm like, "What's the point of an electrician without a switch?" "What's going on?" That's just li- life and culture

Matt 38:35

Yeah. Daily life. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we had so many electricity problems in the mountains. I mean, down country you get it too these days, but up in the mountains, yeah, we'd have load shedding, so you never knew. "Oh, look, the electricity's come on. We might have two hours. What should we do? What should we do? Should we watch TV or should we iron something or put the washing on?" 'Cause we, we can use a machine for it. And, ah, it is quite a stress when you never know when it's about to cut out again. Let alone the tripping of switches and all that stuff. Yeah.

Andy 39:04

they are certainly very frustrating, but I think God really blessed that time, and we-- I think we managed to get by with maybe one light and some candles. And it's very animated. It's the most quietest animated party with deaf people. It's amazing 'cause it was obviously completely silent. But yeah, there's people very animated talking through sign language, and it was just really wonderful to see, to be part of that. And, the end, so myself and my wife moved to a different city. The other, uh, lady who was helping was, I think, going back to her home country. So we, kind of commissioned them as a, as a church and said, "You know, you should continue to meet together, pray together, read the Bible together, share communion together. you guys carry on." so that was kind of a really experience as well despite some of the difficulties

Matt 39:52

Yeah. Bring us up to what led you guys to leave the country

Andy 39:57

So we left a lot of people in our organization also left because, of a police crackdown. So I think it's kind of something that happens quite regularly in many countries around Central Asia. Um, the government's not favorable towards Christians. The Islamic culture is not favorable towards Christians. And yeah, the police somehow got to know some people at our organization, and we kind of knew that we'd, be next. yeah, we decided it would probably be better for us to leave. and part of the reason for that was because we'd just adopted our son, basically 10, days before, and our team leader got a call to say our organization was telling him, "You need to leave." So was probably a very scary experience for him and for us. But, the night before he'd, come to our house and said, are difficult, things are not looking good. We need- pray together." then I got a knock on the door at like 4 o'clock in the morning. I'm like, "Oh no, this is the police." Like, we gonna do kind of thing. Just having adopted son like 10 days before. Anyway, it's actually my team leader saying, "I'm, I'm going. Can you give me a lift to the airport in an hour's time? I've booked my tickets."

Matt 41:15

was he so scared about? That he would be taken in and imprisoned?

Andy 41:21

had heard that other people in our organization had been arrested had been interrogated and yeah, our organization was concerned he'd, he'd, he'd be next on the list. Um, so yeah, that's what happened

Matt 41:39

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so, so he came knocking on your door at 4:00 AM asking for a lift, and you took him off to the airport, and then you guys had to decide as a family, "Yeah, is this, is this just not sustainable right now?"

Andy 41:51

Yeah. I, I, kind of feel in some ways I would've liked to have stayed as long as we could, but I think just for my son and making sure we had the right paperwork, was the right thing to do, We left our city within, maybe 24, 36 hours, you know. got all the paperwork together, chucked some clothes and a few toys in a suitcase and left. yeah, and that was it. So it was, it was pretty, fast and a really, sad way to end. it was the right decision though. Like a few, months later, my, team leader went back, to see how things were going. He had a business there, and he ended up getting arrested and in-interrogated, and our house got the, you know, police came and took some books away and, you know, had police tape on the door kind of thing. So I think it was the right, the right thing to do,

Matt 42:42

Yeah. These are such tough decisions 'cause, every family's different, and the Lord sometimes calls people to stay and stick stuff out. other times he calls us to move on to the next city where there's, there's more of a welcome or more opportunity for the gospel. And there's always that question of, am I exposing local believers by sticking around? It's not just a personal thing. Oh, I'm gonna be tough and stay, but we have to consider the broader picture too, don't we? we never had that decision to make. We were, kicked out by the government, but they are tough things. And a big loss for you guys. I mean, you'd spent quite a few years there learning language and digging deep into the culture, and then suddenly within a couple of days you're out of there and your whole life's in transition anyway. You've just adopted a son. Um, but how was that journey and transition back into the UK?

Andy 43:29

Yeah, it was difficult, but, we've just really felt God's protection and peace, for the whole time. but yeah, it was, certainly stressful. I, didn't really care about... I mean, losing your stuff is annoying. You know, we're saying for years afterwards like even stupid stuff like, "Oh, where's this stapler?" It's like, "Oh, it's back where we used to live back in

Matt 43:49

Yeah.

Andy 43:50

I know exactly where it was. that's kind of annoying. But, the loss of opportunity to share the gospel, is really sad. Leaving our friends without saying a proper goodbye was really hard. some of them, I lost their contact details but think it also reminds me that the sad for me, sad for us, for our team, but actually in the wider picture it's not about that. I think, God gave us this particular time to minister in that particular place, but in the overall sweep of world history, of God's history, doing something much bigger and He's got a plan, that involves lots of people over lots of times. And somehow, yeah, we, we know God is involved in that.

Matt 44:36

That's true

Andy 44:36

kind of a thing that I wanna always bear in mind despite the frustrations and the sadness. It's bigger than me and, Jesus said, "I will build my church,"

Matt 44:45

Yeah, and we take encouragement from the Joseph story, don't we? You know, what man intended for evil, God has intended for good. yeah, He works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purposes, Romans 8:28. And we have to hold onto that, don't we? what about in the UK? How have you pivoted? How have you readjusted your calling and your sense of vision and purpose here? What are you into these days?

Andy 45:09

Yeah, a few different things, but I think still, Kind very similar vein. leaving Asia, I felt like of a reverse refugee, if you like. You know, a refugee my own country. so it's, it's very different from being a normal, a normal le- leaving your, your home, going to somewhere new. But I kind of felt like that. So I think one of the big things that we, uh, been involved in is, yeah, ministry to refugees in the yeah, I remember, a few months after we got back, there was a training for people wanting to start being involved in this ministry. I remember, of the training was, a thought exercise. If you had to leave your home in a few hours, what would you put in a suitcase? I was like, I can't do this exercise 'cause I've just done it." in some ways, I understand what people fleeing... I can't understand totally in, in any way, but I, I've got a little bit of an idea. So I feel like God really gave me that, passion and desire to help, people who come into the UK, who are fleeing, war, persecution, whether,

Matt 46:16

Yeah

Andy 46:17

as Christians or, And there, and there's a, huge opportunity because there are so many people from Muslim countries coming to our country who need to hear the gospel, and they're, they're right here on our doorstep. So yeah, that's

Matt 46:29

Yeah

Andy 46:29

that I've been involved in.

Matt 46:31

Yeah. Brilliant. Andy, thank you for sharing your story with us. Um, you've definitely been given some empathy, for those who've gone through similar things. if it's not war that you've been fleeing from or some kind of terrible tragedy, that sense of powerlessness. I'm not in control. I just have to jump when the authorities say jump, or they put the pressure on and you have to leave. You feel that f- sense of being forced out of where you wanna be, trying to figure out where God is in all the midst of this. So yeah, He's, He's using that in you now, and that's, that's very precious. so thank you for sharing with us, and may the Lord bless you, what you're doing here in the UK. and I'm sure the seeds that you guys have been sowing in Central Asia will continue to bear fruit over many, many years, and we hold onto that hope, don't we?

Andy 47:16

That's right. Thanks very much, Matt

Matt 47:18

All right. God bless, bro. Good to see you today.

Andy 47:20

God bless

Matt 47:22

Thanks for joining us today, guys. Do get in touch if you want to share how God is speaking to you through the podcast or if you want to partner with us in raising up more workers for the harvest. The easiest way to do that is to go to the show notes of any episode and click on Support the Show, where you can become a regular partner by giving even a few dollars a month. That would be a great encouragement to us here. You can also email me personally, matt@frontiers.org.uk. And let's finish with a scripture. It's from Isaiah 60:22: "The smallest family will become a thousand people, and the tiniest group will become a mighty nation. At the right time, I will make it happen." Have a great week, and do join us next time to hear from more ordinary people serving our extraordinary God in some of the toughest parts of the world