Ep. 102 - Honourably Wounded

In this episode Matt talks to Layla and Stephen, a young couple who moved to the Middle East a few years ago to join one of our teams, but very quickly had a major setback to their plans, hopes and dreams.  

We discuss various disappointments and challenges (including how to cope with sexual harassment and severe physical limitations).

And, of course, there are the usual light-hearted moments and reflections on the joy of entering a new culture and seeing God powerfully at work in the lives of Muslims - including one amazing story of praying for a Muslim lady who, during prayer, saw Jesus in a vision and heard him speaking to her. 

Transcript

Matt 0:02

I just couldn't bear it. I'd just have such intense headaches and such- Mm fatigue that it just didn't work. I remember coming back in tears if I did try and go out with a friend and I'd just come back, I'd be so overwhelmed and so unable to do anything, and I probably would've managed a little bit of conversation and I p- probably would've just sat there, like really struggling. And just been like, "Why did God bring us here for this to happen?" Mm. "And for me to be able to do nothing?"

Speaker 2 0:28

Hi folks, welcome back to Raw Mission. Now, do you ever think that missionaries are super spiritual, somehow on a different level to other followers of Jesus? Well, one of the aims of this podcast is to break that myth. Those who go are no different to those who stay. We're flawed, we're sinful, we do things we're not proud of. Many of us actually see ourselves more like Jonah than the Apostle Paul. But we have tasted the goodness and grace of God in our own lives. We've seen the majesty and authority of King Jesus, and we're jealous for his name and his glory, and we've become aware of the need. Two billion Muslims, the vast majority of whom have little or no access to the good news, and we can't look away. I'm Matt, your host, and joining me today are Stephen and Layla, young Brits who moved to the Arab-speaking world a few years ago to join one of our teams. But something really challenging happened to them in their first year that made life there even harder than they'd imagined

Matt 1:24

Well, it's a real joy to have two good friends in the studio with me today. Welcome to Stephen and Layla. Hi, guys. Hello. Hi, how's it going? Yeah. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Well, it's fantastic because not only have you been workers on the field with us, but you've also been working on team with us here in the UK for the last, what is it, couple of years? Yeah. We're coming up to three years soon. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. It's been great to have you here and doing lots of stuff with us at the home base. Let's hear a little bit about, your upbringing. Are you both from the UK? How did you grow up? How did you get into global missions and so on? Let's start with you, Layla. Yeah. so I am from the UK. I'm from a little island off the south coast of England. Mm-hmm. And grew up in a Christian household and discovered, God's heart for the nations, I would say, just through reading His Word to begin with. When I realized how much God must love me, to save me, to redeem me, I just had a passion to share that with people so that they could know God's love and how great that is for them, and then reading the scriptures and seeing how that was totally all over the Bible. That really sparked my heart. and then I took as many short-term trips as I could through my teen years to explore that, especially, with a heart for the poor and for injustice issues. And through that, basically got challenged by an older couple that I went on a church, kind of partnership trip with to Africa, where they asked me what I wanted to do with my life. Mm-hmm. And I said, "Well, this really, but for forever." Um, Where were you in Africa back then? We were in Uganda at that moment. yeah. And so they said, "Well, what are you gonna do at university?" 'Cause at that point, I had a place to go to Exeter University to study philosophy and French. And so I told them that, and they were like, "Well, how's that gonna get you here?" Mm-hmm. And totally the Lord could have used that, but it was the word that I needed in the moment. And then they told me about All Nations Christian College, and so I started to look into degrees there, continued to travel on my gap year, and decided that if the Lord opened a door to go there, that I would go there. Mm-hmm. And that's what happened. Where were you on your gap year? Oh, a bit all over. I went to Sri Lanka, I went to Hong Kong, I went to Australia and New Zealand. mostly just traveling. Brilliant. Okay, and Stephen, what about your background? You also grew up in a Christian home, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm a pastor's kid- Mm. and sort of through that ended up with a cool connection probably when I was, like, year five. How old is that? Like- 10 10. And to go to Uganda as a family to support, like a couple that my parents knew there. and so yeah, we, had, like, the chart to raise money on the wall for a little while, and then we went as a family, and I think that really opened my eyes Weirdly, not the fact that there were so many people that needed the gospel, but that people from other cultures that have the gospel have so much to teach me- Mm about God. And I think going as a child and sort of going to all these different church services and youth camps and stuff was like, wow, like these Ugandans know so much about God, but in a different way than I do. And I think I came back just going, Wow," like, this has changed my whole perspective on God. And- Mm this is the God of the whole world. and also the people that don't know God, there's a new side of God to discover from them that I'll never get to know, and the church will never get to know unless they hear the gospel. but I came back from that, and I, remember it must've been like a week, I turned to my mom and was like, "Mom, I'm going back again." And she kind of jokingly said, "Sure, if you raise the money, then you can go yourself." So, I did. I went again. I went by myself when I was 13. I flew out, and met them in airport. And I think at the time I thought I was, like, going to help in the orphanage again and be great, but actually it's probably just a annoying teen, like young teenager sort of thing- Mm getting in the way. But for me, just the ability to do that and having the doors opened again, like exposed me to that like, no, it's true, like the other side of the world and there is so much more of the gospel here. Mm. And there's so much more to discover. I kind of followed on that. I had various ideas about, you know, going back to Uganda and- stuff. And then I remember I was chatting to my dad, I'd probably been talking about going back to Uganda for long term for a while, and my dad sat me down and he was like, Did you know that there is like more Christian population density," I don't, don't know what the right term is, but- Mm "in Uganda than the UK? Have you ever thought about going somewhere they actually need you?" Wow. And it was really strong. It was a bit like a slap in the face, but it really did kind of open my eyes to that idea of unreached people groups. And like- Mm yeah, no, there is this, but there's actually so much more to the world, and maybe God wants to use me in a strategic way, not just the way that's fun or the way that I'm known to it. really interesting that your dad as a pastor said that- Mm 'cause a lot of pastors don't even think like that about the unreached. I thought you were gonna say, "Oh, but there are so many people in the UK, therefore- Mm why don't you stay here and don't go to Uganda?" Yeah. But to take it to the next level and say, "Actually, there are places way more hard up- Mm gospel access wise than Uganda," that's amazing that your dad was so releasing, so trusting, and so aware- Yeah of what's going on in the world, actually. And I didn't know you both had Uganda as part of your- Yeah. early connection. Yeah. It's random. Yeah. Yeah. we also actually went to Uganda, it's a bit later on in the story, we went to Uganda together. As a dating couple, yeah. As a, like- Wow as a very early couple as well. So it's like a- Nice multiple steps on our journey, so. That's great. Yeah. Okay. So- yeah, let's go back to you, Laila. what happened? You went off to All Nations Christian College at that point then? Yeah. Yeah, which is where we met. and then through that time, honestly, I didn't really even know terminology like unreached people groups. I just knew that I wanted to share Jesus where there wasn't anybody, and so learned about all of those types of terms and learned about the world and the history of missions and- Mm missions really thoroughly through the Bible, and was really open about where I wanted to go. and so I was just asking the Lord, and then did some assignments on the Muslim world and just saw how few workers there were. I think at that point it was one worker to 750,000 unreached Muslims or something like that. Mm-hmm. Wow. Um, so I was like, "Well, Lord, it seems strategic if half the unreached people groups in the world are Muslim, then I guess I'll just go so that was how that decision was made, and then I took what's called a ministry trip. so I did, four weeks in a Muslim nation to test that calling, which was, a crazy experience. Was that Africa? No, it was Afghanistan, actually. Oh, nice so a few years before everything re-kicked off, if you like. but yeah, so I really threw myself in the deep end. Mm. But it was an amazing experience, and I learned a lot, from the workers that I stayed with and- Yeah just- Was this Frontiers Connected? No, it wasn't actually. Mm. It was through a different organization. Yeah. so yeah, that was amazing, and I think afterwards All Nations said they wouldn't ever be able to send somebody to a high-risk country again. Yeah, you were, you were the last person to go. Yeah. Okay. Why? You've gotta tell us some stories from- Oh, there wasn't- from Afghanistan there wasn't necessarily a why. They just realized- Yeah we probably can't actually do that, and that's okay. Didn't think that through too well, did they? But no, it was good. It was... Like when I landed, they were like, "This is what you have to do if you hear gunshots," and, things like that. And then totally freaked myself out one evening because there was an oil barrel that cooled outside our accommodation, and as it cooled, it popped. And so there's me panicking. Oh, no. Thinking, "This is what's happening, and no one else is reacting." but no, I learned a lot through that trip of actually how I might think that I wanna go off and do all these crazy things for God, and I'm gonna lay down my life in certain ways, but actually, He has a calling to us to live for Him. and how am I gonna let Him be Lord of my life and steward my life for His kingdom, rather than just rush into what I see as the most needy, risky situations? Mm. How can I be wise? so yeah, that was really pivotable for me. Mm. Yeah. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay. So you were already exploring the Muslim world, and had Stephen come into the picture yet at all, dating wise? Do you wanna pick up the story, Stephen? Yeah. Yeah. So I also came to All Nations, I think. Yeah, I, I think I, I came in off the back of this Okay, not Uganda, but definitely missions and definitely global something. Mm. So what, what would that end up as? I felt at the time like I really knew what that was, but looking back, I definitely didn't. And I think, to be honest, I think God did a lot in our sort of class, if you like, or our year, for working with Muslims. I think- Mm not that many came in thinking that they were gonna going to go to Muslims. Maybe there was like one key couple I can think of who were really convicted. But just through that time, there was a lot of special prayer events and stuff like that, that really- Mm seemed to bring people in the line of, No, we need to see something change in the Muslim world." And I remember really clearly hearing this guy talking about the stats which people might have heard of the massive difference in the amount of people coming to faith in the Muslim world now compared to ever before in history, and how dramatic a different it's been. And really got me excited as to like, where's God's momentum? Like, this is God's mission, not ours. and again, that's a focus at All Nations. Like, how do we take part in God's mission and what he's doing? Mm. And so if he's doing something in the Muslim world, I wanna be where he's doing stuff. Like, I wanna be involved in that. And that paired with, Laila's interest in the Muslim world and the people who had become our team leaders', invitation to join them. Mm-hmm. those three things paired- 'Cause they were at All Nations. Mm. Yeah. is kind of what tipped the balance over to, to go to the Muslim world. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For me at least. Yeah. Okay. So there's a bit of Uganda in both your stories. There's Afghanistan in Laila's story. And what about you? Had you ever done other stuff outside of, you know, where you ended up? Hmm. No, honestly, hadn't. my internship, ended up being in Europe, which was less exciting, but still learned a lot. but yeah, so my actual first ever experience of a Muslim country was the day that we moved, 'cause we never did a vision trip because we're affected by COVID- Mm and stuff like that. So yeah, for me, that landing day. We, neither of us had ever been to the country that we moved to until we- Wow We took our suitcases. Until we That's really interesting. Yeah. I mean, we do usually recommend people get a chance to go out and see and meet the team and so on. But at least you'd been at college with your team leaders. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you knew them. That was quite a big part of you choosing that part of the Arab world, wasn't it? Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and to begin with, they actually just said, "Come along and discover the Muslim world. Discover the Arab world. We don't mind how long you're with us. We're happy for you to just use this as a training space." we got on with them great. And I think 'cause we moved straight after uni, so we were 22. I was 23. You had your 23rd birthday the first week we landed. Uh-huh. We'd been married nine months. so especially- Wow for our church, they were a lot more comforted by the fact that we were going to this couple that could shepherd us. Yeah. Mm. They'd been in the country for a few decades. Mm. They trusted that couple, and that couple was very open-handed and pastoral towards us. Mm. And I think if it had been a different situation, then we wouldn't have been able to- We, we'd have been asked to wait, for sure. Yeah. Um, yeah. I, I think to be honest as well, like, that's like the bit that we've almost just missed out is the, so we finished uni. We already knew that we wanted to go, and we kind of felt drawn to this team and this couple but We just didn't think we could go straight away. We didn't think we had the skills, we didn't think we were able. But what changed, I had a PGC course. PGC is, teacher training for those who don't know. Yes. So I was, like, all set up on that, and, then I remember we had a call with our, like, future team leaders, and they kind of were like, "Yeah, you could use teaching here." But I can't remember exactly how, but they just challenged us and like, "Why don't you come and find out what you wanna do- Mm and find out what actually would work for you here, what you'd enjoy, what you feel like would work along with ministry." And something about that really clicked with us, and we just felt really challenged, like, yeah, what are we... Like, if we do this, right, so I'm gonna do a year of training, and then I've gotta do two more years of an ECT and, so we- we're here for three years. Which is what? Teaching practice or something? Yeah. So it's just like you need to do two more years to- Yeah solidify it. Mm. We're just gonna get stuck here. Yeah. And we're not gonna know what we wanna do, whereas this opportunity's here in front of us right now. we just felt really challenged by God that we needed to do that. Mm-hmm. And that we could, if we did tho- some time- Mm and went, "Right, I wanna get training in this particular area." Yeah. We can go back to the UK- And then come back and we could get that, or we could do it there. but we'd be in the place where we felt like God was calling us to be. And it's also, and not every country in the Arab world or worldwide- Mm does give you that freedom of, well, just come and see- Mm-hmm and learn language- Yeah That's true and so on. But if, if that was an option for you, why not grab it? Mm-hmm. And you did. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great to do. Yeah. And I think when we just knew that we felt called into mission, it's like, well, we'll do anything. Like, we'll do whatever- Mm the profession is that we need to be there. So we're not attached to that. Yeah. The bit we're attached to is actually serving God overseas in mission. Mm. So let's go and do that bit, and then next bit can be an add-on, rather than the other way around, rather than getting the training- Mm and letting the mission be an add-on, to make the mission the fore focus, especially in our youth, I think that worked well for our position. Yeah. So, paint a picture. What is it like arriving in that Arab city- you ended up living in for a while? yeah, first impressions. Tell us some stories. Well, our city is a mega city. around 25 million people. pretty polluted, dusty, hot most of the time- Mm until you get used to it. kind of claustrophobic in lots of ways. I grew up on a farm, and so it was very, yeah, it was very challenging for me to begin with, I think. Mm-hmm. but also there's just a life that you kind of fall in love with. There's a pulse. I think also we're both more late night people- Mm and mo- more spontaneous people. And so the fact that the pulse didn't feel like a rat race, it felt like just a- Mm. Buzz uh, yeah, a buzz. Yeah. Like, and everything is slightly exotic to you. and it's different, and you walk around and people are shouting at each other. And there's cars honking, and there's dust spraying in your face. Mm. And our feet were just mucky every single day- Yeah we came home. Doesn't matter how many pairs of socks. Yeah. Well- Yeah not even that. We wore sandals, and you can't wear shoes- Right in the house. Yeah. So we adjusted to taking them off as soon as you come home, and there would just be these brown footprints all over the tiles. Yeah. but yeah, so it was crazy and overwhelming and super tiring, but we loved it. an apartment block you lived in or something? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it was. more when we originally landed, I remember, for me not having been to, like, a country like this before, like, we landed in this airport and it's just like... All right, again, this was COVID time, so- You had this massive line of people getting ready to show their COVID tests and whatever. Mm. But the line was just nothing, and every so often people would just walk through past the guys who were waiting. And yet there's also guys with guns there- Yeah like watching everyone, staring them out, but then also letting them walk past. Mm. And we're just like, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, We got so lost in the airport. Yeah. And we knew nothing. Mm. I remember texting our team leaders on the plane, because we were doing a type of language learning that we would learn as we were there. Mm. so they told us, "Don't worry about that." And I remember texting them as we got on the plane. I was like, "I don't even know how to say hello to the immigration officer to be respectful." Like, "How do we say hello?" Like, in some ways, totally unprepared. Yeah. Yeah. but yeah, it was exciting as well as absolutely terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I do remember seeing Laila's face as we were sort of driving through with like half excitement, half terror as this city just went on and on and on. You know, it was like an hour- Yeah and a half drive at least from the airport to where we lived, and that's all just through just city and city and city. Blocks and blocks of buildings, yeah. And, and mosques everywhere. Concrete. And, and v- was it a very clearly Muslim- Mm-hmm. Yeah cityscape, in a sense? Yeah. even just from clothing. as much as it was extreme because we'd come from lockdown. Yeah. But then to just be surrounded by people. And I think it is shocking, and you do realize, as much as it's hard to admit, and it's, like, sad to admit, we have internal biases about what we think- these people might do and what we think they might say. And like how do... If we met them and we're here- Mm and then, you know, it takes time. And when we arrive to like, "I don't know how these people are gonna treat us or what they think of us." and you have to shed that over time and really go, "No, these people deeply kind and deeply wonderful." And- Mm. Mm but when you first arrive, you don't have that, and it's just like, "Oh my goodness." Mm-hmm. "This is so overwhelming." And flashing lights- Yeah and beeping horns and- Yeah. I'd say the flashing lights was probably more intense than the mosques on every street. And there were churches as well, but they're just not lit up and advertised in the same way. Yeah. Tell us about some of the first Arabs you met then, or some of the relationships that stick in your minds. Yeah. I think, I'll always remember, there was like a little corner shop down the road and I think... I had someone affectionately call them a boss man shop, which- Oh, yeah which like wouldn't, wouldn't translate very well outside the UK maybe, but like- Was it like, like a little cigarette stall or a kiosk? Yeah. It's like a... But yeah, Kiosk but they'd sell everything you need. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them just sell snacks, but then some of them you ask for it and they'll deepen- Some have, yeah to a cupboard and they'll have everything. Yeah. but it was run by a family. Mm. And so, you know, one night it would be the younger brother, the next night it would be the older brother- Mm then the next night it would be the dad. And we just got to know them and they would get to know us. And- Mm as we kind of went there and didn't understand how to pay our bills at the shop, and didn't understand how to top up our mobile phones- Mm and, and they kind of laugh at us and also not know how to help us all at the same time. I think just that, like, 'cause a special relationship. and it seems like a lot of people seem to have that with their local shop like that. Mm. Mm-hmm. And some people got really welcomed in as family, but just generally they just recognize you and- Hmm. I mean, they'll be dealing with another customer, but they will stop talking to the customer to greet you and say welcome and say hello, and that just... That special feeling knowing like, oh, yeah, this place feels like my place in a way that- Yeah the UK suburb just never does. That's true. Yeah. You never walk out. I mean, maybe you walk the dog and someone will say hi- Yeah but not like that. 'Cause you're looking for familiarity- Mm. Mm and you're looking for belonging, and especially in a new place like that where you don't know anything, and that's nice. Something regular, the people who are the same, and actually familiarity, I mean, yes, family. Mm. It was a family. Mm. what about people around you in the tower block? Was it hard to get to know them? I think it was harder than we expected, because probably part of our preconceptions and some of our previous experience, we really expected visiting culture to be strong. Mm. And I think in the city, it just wasn't as strong as we expected, and that's partly because of this nation's history, with just political unrest. they're not necessarily as trusting to invite people into their homes- Mm as we expected. but it is still, I guess socially dictated that you'll go and greet your neighbors and, that type of thing. So it was hit and miss, I would say. yeah, but the people on the street, we definitely got to know the people that were around more regularly. yeah. Which came with its pros and cons. There was one, particularly difficult, story for me as not long after we moved, especially with navigating male-female relationships with that. Mm-hmm. there was this one guy who would drive past our building, 'cause there were a couple of other non-local families staying in the building. so it was known as a bit of a place that was safe for foreigners to live. Mm. So there was this one guy who would drive, and then park his motorbike right outside our building, and then he would just shout at the building. but, uh, he would also very intensely stare or he would say quite lewd and rude comments if you walked past- Mm as well towards the women, and this happened to me specifically a lot. Mm. So that was really difficult to adjust to when you're new in a place. It went on for probably about two months, and so we were trying to figure out, like how do you... I'm in this new culture, I want to be respectful. I have no idea what he's actually saying. Right. Yeah. I can get the vibe, but I'm not actually sure. Yeah. And is it mental health or is it- Exactly he's actually an aggressive person? Yeah. What's happening? And then it got to the point where I would leave the house and he would start to follow me as well. Yeah. and so this is where, like the gift of having good local friends- Yeah is so important. 'cause eventually we asked a couple, didn't we? Yeah. I was gonna say just before that as well, like we, we were doing that paired with asking non-local advice first. Mm. and you know, our teammates and what people are reflecting, it's like, oh, and to show the light of Christ to this guy and just be kind and, just ignoring and just like letting go and praying that it would go, which not necessarily bad things, but actually well, the advice was a cultural advice, not necessarily like a godly wisdom advice. Mm. And I think we realized that properly when we did speak to this local couple as they just said. Yeah. 'Cause they were like, "It's totally inappropriate, and your husband needs to come out and kind of put him in his place," basically. And shout at him. yeah. They said, "You stand on your bal..." 'Cause I would go out onto the balcony to water our plants- Yeah 'cause I, like, accumulated as many houseplants as possible to have nature in the city. Yeah. and it just got to the point where I felt too uncomfortable to do that. Mm-hmm. And they said, "Every time you do that, your husband goes out with you. He stares at him, he locks eyes, and he says, 'What? What is it?'" Right. "If he says anything, if he looks at you." And that's when it stopped, actually. Wow. As well as, we had, like, a prayer support chat for us from people back home that were- Mm like, just praying for us regularly and partners. And I remember putting it on there, and it was the following week as well that it- Mm went so. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. That was really dramatic. that's really important. Thank you. that's good advice, good for us to think about. It's pretty similar in Pakistan, actually. you have to protect one another- Mm very well, and especially the ladies, if you're out in a big, busy marketplace, and if anybody does something inappropriate, you call attention to it quickly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you yell, you shout, and the crowd will actually support you- Yeah. Yeah against that inappropriate behavior. And it seems a bit countercultural for us. Yeah. Oh, no, just, you know- Mm-hmm be quiet and move away or whatever. But sometimes, and as a man as well, like you said, lock eyes. What?" Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, "Yeah." Yeah. You know, and they would say you know, "Don't you have a sister at home?" Mm. Mm-hmm. Quite strongly, but that is- Yeah the cultural language- Yeah that they understand. That means- Yeah you're, "No, you're not welcome to do that kind of behavior." Yeah. "And I'm protecting you." Yeah. "So back off." Yeah. And it almost always that would deal with it, you know? Yeah. But that's really good you got that wisdom at the right moment when- Yeah people were praying and... Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Scary, though. Mm. I mean, I don't wanna- Yeah undress me how frightening that is. It, it just changes the way you feel welcomed into it. It's the combination. You that local- Yeah shop who welcome you every time paired with another person who is the complete opposite. Yeah. And that is the tension, like. And you feel more vulnerable 'cause you're in a new place. Mm. Yeah. You just don't know- Yeah the cultural norms. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't know what he's saying, especially, I think, in that place where I don't just represent myself, I represent my husband. Mm-hmm. And then we know as well that we're ambassadors for the faith, so I represent- Yep. Yeah God in that place. Yeah. And what am I allowing to be said over me- Mm that's actually really inappropriate? Which is definitely different to how our mindset would be. but it was important yeah, that I would be seen to be respected in that place- Mm for our family, and then also for our faith. Yeah. Mm. It's fascinating. and what was the dress code for you guys? You know, male and female might be different. Mm. What was it like there? Yeah, I think, male it was fairly simple to just focus on wearing trousers. Yeah. Which was a struggle for me at the time, to be honest. I used to wear shorts- Oh, yeah everywhere all the time, and especially- Yeah, and it's so hot you think even more so- Yeah I should be wearing shorts and flip-flops now. Yeah. What, what do you mean I can't, wear shorts? But, yeah, just trousers for me. Yeah. It's more simple for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the city that we were in, it differed a lot depending on how conservative people were in their faith, but also how wealthy they were. Mm. so a couple of decades ago, it would've been really rare for people to cover their head at all, or for the women, they'd wear maybe tighter things or skirts and things like that. And then that's changed, over the past couple of decades quite rapidly- to be more conservative now. And so you'll see, especially like, for example, women who would beg, they'd be like very conservatively dressed. but then later on when I trained, in some work and I met some wealthier local families, she would wear quite similar to Western clothing. She'd never cover her hair. so it really varied. So honestly, pitching yourself in that is quite difficult. Yeah. And you have to think about who am I trying to be like? So if I'm looking to remove barriers to the gospel, who am I trying to be like, and therefore who am I trying to dress similarly to? and to be honest, because we came so open-handed, at the beginning, I didn't really know. Yeah. And that was quite difficult. It was quite stressful. Yeah. No, I remember making a really clear mistake where I'd come with assumptions that, oh, not wearing a headdress and that attire that you'd imagine, oh, that must be a Christian, 'cause there is a Christian population. And I spoke to a woman at like a sports club that I was going to, and, literally asked her about church or something like that. it was appropriate to talk to her in that situation, and just looked at me like I was crazy. Mm. And was like, "No, I'm a Muslim." Yeah I was like, "Oh. Oh, right. Okay." it just, that one of those simple mistakes and just that assumption. But yeah, she was from a wealthier family, and her father- didn't, instruct her that she had to do that. So she- Yeah was free to... Yeah. So for me, I would wear long sleeves, obviously long trousers. I tried to get tops or cardigans and things that would like- Hmm fall quite low. So you can wear trousers there- Yeah as a woman? Lots of people would wear trousers. Mm-hmm. There's also a difference, I think, which I guess was slightly unique for us, where we went out married but without children, which is not very common in the culture, before you're married, you might be able to dress a bit more young. Hmm. And then when you're married, you might become a bit more, I don't know, And slightly more conservative. but then again, it very much depends on your husband's preferences then. Yeah. Yeah. And when you don't have kids, you kind of fall in between those two things. You're kind of not- a mum with kids, but you're also not- Yeah single, so. Yeah. And then always hair up. but I didn't cover my hair. But our team was focused on, also leaving our city and going to these more remote groups on the borders of our country. Mm-hmm. And so for those places, I would often cover my head. Right. Yeah. So the important lesson really is be flexible, be fluid. And yeah, absolutely the same where I was when At one point in the university I taught in had a female vice chancellor. You know, she'd, "Hello, Mr. Matthew," and hold out her hand- Yeah to greet me with a handshake. Wow. Yeah. Oh, of course I'm gonna shake that hand then. But that- Mm in most parts of Pakistan, I would never shake the hand of a woman- Yeah let alone even make- Mm eye contact really for- any long moment. So yeah, it really does depend, doesn't it? City and rural and- Yeah. Yeah university and street, and everything just changes and you eventually pick it up naturally. Yeah. Yeah. But in the beginning it's like, "What is happening? What do I do?" Absolutely. Yeah. And I think in the city that we were, where there were other people that were from Western nations- that just had jobs, say, as diplomats or things like that. Teachers. Business. the challenge is to not just go, "Oh, well, I can get away with living a similar lifestyle." Mm. "So where I feel uncomfortable and out of my depth, I'm just gonna revert to that." Mm. And so the challenge is to stay, matching the groups- Mm in that city that are harder to- Yeah be present with. Because we want to be known as modest, as yeah, people of faith. Yeah. You know- Mm spiritually conspicuous, we sometimes say. Not religiously obnoxious- Yeah not in your face with religion, but sensitive- Yeah and honoring to family, culture, God, and so on in a gentle way. Yeah. And clothes and appearance really do communicate- It does communicate that to people, like- Yeah especially I think to Muslims. We don't really think about it as much as Christian. We do, but- nowhere near as much as they would. And- when they can't see any way that you are- honoring God in that way, then are you actually a- Yeah person of faith? When there's already assumptions based off of your skin color or the- Yeah country that you say you're from or... Yeah. How did first conversations go? you know, "Oh, what are you doing here? Why are you coming to live in the Arab world?" You know, "What's your identity here?" How did you- Yeah manage all of that? Think I said different things to different people. Yeah. And then- Found myself, like, crumbling my boots when those people might be in the same space as like- am I here to work with refugees or am I here to work for language or am I here to honor Jesus or- Yeah like, what does that look like? I think especially in the beginning, I was just like, I don't know the right thing to say. And I think- Yeah that eventually honed in something, which was probably more like, I feel like God's really challenged me to come here and to honor your culture and learn your culture and also help out with refugees and be willing to do what God wants me to do- would be kind of the more standard answer I landed on. Or if it was a quick conversation, we'd say we're here to learn Arabic, 'cause that was very common in our city as well. Yeah. And that is what we spent- And it's true, yeah like 20 hours a week- or something doing. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. and did you find people were pretty interested in you as well as generally welcoming? would they ask faith conversations Sometimes. I think it was a real mix. and again, I think our city had some really clear almost like class areas, and then different people had different questions. so one of the key ways that I met local people was joining a sports club. the people who would be in the sports club were more in that middle kind of upper class- Yeah type of area. which at the time, I think originally I was like, "Oh, these are not the right people." And then I realized, hang on a second. Yes, they are. they're Muslims and they, don't know Jesus, so worth that time. but- they were quite used to the idea of Westerners, and they watched a lot of American or British shows. they didn't really ask anything about why I'm out here, 'cause I think even some of them could probably imagine traveling to other countries- Yeah and stuff. So, They'd be much more interested in either, like, pop culture references or- Yeah sort of stuff like that, chatting about those type of things. whereas I would say kind of poorer families that we met had more, genuine curiosity as to why we would be there, especially if we would go and visit them in where they lived- and not like the glamorous parts of town, and, they would be a lot more inquisitive. That would maybe lead more to faith conversations. Yeah, less imaginable for them, I think, which led to more questions. And because there are Christians in their culture, did you feel most Muslims assume, "I know what Christianity is, I know who Christians are," so they're not quite as inquisitive? I think so. And, f-for me, that kind of led to a little bit of like, actually if someone asked me if I was a Christian, I'd usually say no. and then they'd ask, "Oh, are you a Muslim then?" And then you say no, and then they're really interested. Yeah. Like, "So what are you?" And I would kind of go and give like the answer of like, "I'm a follower of Jesus"- or like of Isa. And That was a way to get there, because as you say, when they like they know what Christians are, if you say, "Oh, yes, I'm a Christian," that's the end of the conversation. 'Cause they go, bang, "Okay, I know what that means." And it might be wrong what they think they know. Yes. almost definitely it's wrong- Yeah to be honest. especially, yeah, it's very different, and the Christians that they might know and... yeah, so I think that, ended up... But it took a while to get to that point of going, Oh yeah, I'm, I'm trying to say different things to be conspicuous about who I am." But- And provoke- Yeah thought- Yeah rather than- Provoke thought rather than just tick the box- Yeah that they want. Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting. Sounds like a fascinating place. what were some of the hardest things for you guys? Yeah. I think probably the big, thing that overlooks a lot of our time that made it difficult was after maybe four or five months of being in the country. I think less. Three. Yeah. we actually had an amazing Eid dinner with a local family, and it really felt like we were getting into, our time, and it was like a turning point of like, wow, we understand in a new way and our language is deepening, and then We went to another city in the country to get out of, our city, which was like stupidly hot, and it's like everyone tries to get out around that time. so we went to this other city, and we're just walking around on the street, and- It was Eid. It was Eid. So it was packed because lots of people from more rural parts of the country came to this city for that weekend. Midsea side. It's like a bank holiday weekend- basically. Yeah. And yeah, we're just walking down the street, and somebody leant out of a tram and just whacked me on the back of the head, and- it was a really weird moment for me because, I didn't fall over and- Like it hurt, but it d- nothing dramatic happened. I was mostly shocked and turned around, looked back at the tram to see the guy kind of looking back, kind of laughing. And carried on with that evening, gradually kind of felt a little bit woozy and a bit funny. but the big change was the next morning. I woke up the next morning, we went out, And I did not feel well. We went to church. We went to church. On the way back from church, I just felt really woozy. Everything shook. I could barely start to walk. I had such a crazy headache and- we got back to the apartment we were staying, and then yeah, for the rest of the I couldn't walk into the next room without going along the wall, and we ended up getting a car back to our apartment, and that kind of level of needing to be in bed, just really bad headaches, needing to walk along the wall, was about a week and a half probably of that. and it just seemed to last forever. Did you see a doctor that first week? Yeah. So they were particularly worried about a part of my neck that might have been injured. They decided that it was probably okay and it would just be concussion, and that it would go away. Had a CT scan. Had a CT scan, Like, there was no major damage. Oh, no, actually the CT scan was later. Sorry. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they did a physical assessment, decided 95% probably fine, probably just a concussion. We'll get over it in maybe a month or two. 5% we could pay, 'cause there's no national health service or anything like that. so we could pay to get an MRI, but we said, "Well, if the doctor only thinks it's 5%, then it's probably fine and we'll leave it." And then Stephen continued to be unwell for probably th- that level of concussion for about three months. And it was h- it was the height of summer then. we'd been there, yeah, three to six months through that period, so it was really, the kind of culture shock ebbs and flows, so we would come off on the high really is when it had happened, and then it just made the next shock really low- Mm. Yeah through the hot summer. So it was a bit of an accumulation of difficult circumstances- Mm that first summer. you couldn't function, you couldn't do language study. Yeah. You couldn't- Yeah. Everything. Everything halted. And especially after that key moment, it felt like everything had gone wow. And you do with culture, you hit those catastrophes, but you also hit those shoot moments where you go, "Wow," like, "I can do this. I can live here." Mm. I can love these people. I can have friends." Mm. And it's right after that and it's like boom, took the wind out of your sails type of thing. and I also had some other more common issues, like stomach issues and stuff like that. But those things just build and it, like you say, just restricted everything we can do. Mm. So like- clubs that I was attending, a refugee group I was helping out at, language lessons, even team events- Team nights and personally, like I'm a massive extrovert, and so all, everything just shut down for me, and it just felt like- life didn't exist outside of our apartment. and it's not like home. You don't have the comfort foods, and the Wi-Fi's not good, and- it's sitting and- It's hot sweating in a, an apartment. I remember reading a list on, like a health website of like what to avoid if you have concussion, and it was like loud noises, high temperatures. Oh, yeah. I was like, "Oh, should we leave the country?" Yes. yeah. So that was really tricky. And then there were still things to sort out around the house. We'd only been there three months, as well as the normal running of our lives and trying to keep my language lessons going and Stephen being quite unwell. And so suddenly I was doing quite a lot quite early on. so that was a challenge. Yeah. And then you slightly improved, and that continued for about a year until we went back to the doctor and said, "This is still not gone." Yeah, which started a whole other set of investigations. But again, it's just that pressure on everything or like missed language lessons or... it's really important to get all those hours in early as you can and push into it, but missing so many of them and, falling behind Layla and her language. Mm. So when we do go out, just not feeling like we were at the same level even though- Mm we'd started all at the same time. And, that just being demoralizing, and again, just restricting, like you want to go and enjoy the late night culture and you feel attuned to that, but when, when you actually do it, you... I just couldn't bear it. I'd just have such intense headaches and such- Mm fatigue that it just didn't work. I remember coming back in tears if I did try and go out with a friend and I'd just come back, I'd be so overwhelmed and so unable to do anything, and I probably would've managed a little bit of conversation and I p- probably would've just sat there, like really struggling. And just been like, "Why did God bring us here for this to happen?" Mm. "And for me to be able to do nothing?" Like- these people support us to be here to do God's work, and every time I go out and try, I just come back it feels like I've achieved nothing. and I think especially that first year before we went back to the doctor, God really did teach me a lot Like, I remember coming back on home assignment and talking to people, and I felt like God gave me kind of just an idea around, like, being God's camera crew because we had still seen God do amazing things, whether it's through people around us, whether it's through answers to prayer. It was like you know, if I am just here and if, you know, this support raised money is to get me here just to witness to what God is doing himself with me being literally the worst version of myself I've ever been- then that's worth it if that's what he's chosen to do. And I remember feeling so challenged about that coming back. I will go and I will be your camera crew, God. Like, I will just sit behind the camera and I'll just watch- what you're doing amongst these people and the way you wanna change this country. but it was a really big wrestle to get to that point- So hard because just a lot of Dissatisfaction essentially, and- Yeah. Yeah, we want people to thrive on the field- Mm-hmm not just survive. whether that's in team life, whether that's in culture or whatever it is, of course, in ministry. yeah. So what happens when someone's not thriving? And that's a huge question- Yeah all the time that our member carers are asking and trying to encourage people with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. did you feel you had church at home and member carers supporting you through this? Yeah. I'd say at different points, different levels of yes. Like- Yeah there were points where support was brilliant and we made great relationships through those difficult times. And I mean, actually, there was a lady on our team as well who had ME, and- she'd been on the field for, like, 10 years, with ME, and so- In her 50s and had had ME since she was 18. Yeah. Wow. So really well accustomed to serving God overseas when you feel limited. With limits. And that was really inspiring and helpful for us. Yeah. Just that you can carry on with this- Mm and efficiency is actually not a big word in the kingdom of God the way that we think it is. Like- Mm-hmm it's godly efficiency was just unseen by us. And from the outside, we could see how effective and amazing she was despite knowing, as we got to know her more and more, how restricted she was. And going, "Okay, well, I can see that in her, so what is God doing in me? What does he wanna do in me and us?" Because as Layla said earlier, like, my restriction is her restriction. Yeah like, we can't share the cooking definitely, and we can't- Yeah, that's true like, going to do the groceries for me just not possible some days and- You just do ministry together and be out with families. Yeah. It's just harder. It's just harder and harder. And going back to that support thing, I mean, what does support look like? Even if your team is great, your church is great- Yeah over there and here, and member care is great, you're still gonna be wrestling, you're gonna be lonely. Humans can't- help a lot of the time- Yeah when people are going through deep crises. Yeah. There's just limits to what we can offer- Mm-hmm I suppose. Yeah. Even if the intention is there. Yeah. Yeah. There's some stuff you had to battle through. And that was the challenge, taking it to the Lord in that- Mm and understanding what on earth his purpose was- and coming to a place of acceptance and trying to find a sustainable lifestyle. When everything is new and you already don't have a normal, with also grieving that with God. that was really challenging, really tricky. yeah. and I think just, I don't know, stretched us in ways that we hadn't- Yeah been stretched, I think, so far. And also just so confusing, like, "Lord, what on earth? Like, we are in our early 20s. we're so willing, Lord." we'll just do it. Like, you know, that's already clear from what we've shared of, choosing to go before, like we've done certain other things that people might think would be helpful and stuff like that. like we've shown that we're so willing, Jesus. Like, what, why would you restrict us?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think as well, like it was interesting that time like Laila was still doing language lessons and still making relationships despite me being more limited. And even as hard as it was, it was also amazing to watch, her have more and more opportunities, to go and meet with women and even just being out and about, that would cause you to have chance encounters, especially with women that you wouldn't have had if I was there- and you know, me in that, that was like, eventually came to the point of me going, "Okay, God, if we're supposed to be here so that Laila can be here, and you can use her in amazing ways- then okay, God, I'll sit inside and I'll- wait and I'll do language when I can, and I'll see friends when I can." But- Release her into ministry and that's a- Yeah. But that was- big challenge for any couple that was really, really hard. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Powerful, guys. Yeah. And you know, you're still young. This is only a few years ago- Yeah. we're talking about, so. It's true. Yeah. We're not expecting to wrap this all up with some neat, perfect answer because this is still part of your formation and figuring- Yeah out what the Lord is up to. So at this point, Lela, you're feeling a bit more released to go out and do some ministry on your own with some of the ladies in that culture. Give us an example of what that might have looked like. Yeah. I think it was a lot of going into people's homes and just trying to, you know, weave Bible stories, offer prayer, but be real. and actually Stephen being unwell in some ways gave me a common relatable point. especially if we were in poorer households, people might be bringing up what's going wrong in their lives or what's difficult. so that was in some ways really good to be able to share. probably the most impactful visit I had that I can remember is going to, one household with a teammate and, visiting our friend there. She had two kids at the time and was pregnant with her third, and her mum was also visiting, who came fairly regularly. And we were kinda praying for the baby, and this was something we did fairly regularly at that point, so they assumed their positions that they did when we prayed for this unborn child. and then later on in the conversation, the mum asked for advice for her cough that she'd had for a really long time, and kind of just forgot to think about it really, and we're like, "Oh, maybe try this," and then moved around. And then she brought the conversation back and said, "Aren't you gonna pray for me?" And so we were like, "Oh yeah, we should pray for you." so we did that. So hands open, in front of us, which is more relatable for them. Eyes open. we just asked that God would basically touch her. and in this time, my teammate paused for a bit longer than we maybe normally would when praying. And afterwards she said, Did anything happen?" And this lady said, Yes, I saw a vision, and it was a man in white, and also Mariam was standing," so Mariam is Mary. Mariam was standing behind him," which often Muslim women will see Mariam, or that will be part of their visions of Jesus I think it's just God's kindness as a way to connect to them. At which point we were like, "What?" "Okay, what do we do? Maybe we just pray again 'cause we don't know." And so we prayed again, and we just let more time pass without really words, but just to see if God did anything. Asked her again and she said, Yes, he told me something, but I'm not gonna tell you what it is." And so we were like, "Oh, okay." And at which point we tried to just kinda tease it out, started to talk a little bit about Jesus, started to veer into places that we might disagree, and so we thought, "Okay." And my, teammate just Quite diplomatically said, I think something differently about Jesus, that he wasn't just a prophet, but it's okay, we don't need to argue about it." and they said, "Well, what do you think?" And she was like, "Well, I believe that he was God." And then the mum pipes up and she said, "That's what he said to me." Wow. And we're going crazy at this point, but trying to keep, like- Yeah calm on the outside. Like, "He told you that he was God?" and then as she told us more about the story, it was basically an exact verse from Revelation as well of like, "I'm standing at the door of your heart knocking." and yeah, we were just blown away by God's grace in that moment. yeah. You found the verse as well, right? Yeah. Found the verse. My teammate read it- Mm and she was like, "Yep, that's exactly it." and then continued to pray for her and my teammate especially shared quite a lot with her on other visits and would go, especially when she was visiting. and to be honest, that was the most that seems to have happened on her spiritual journey. so not really sure what God is doing in the background. Mm-hmm. But so incredible to witness that. Wow. So good. but but let's move forward in the story a bit and see what happened next- as things developed. Yeah. So I, ended up, probably after about a year and a half of being there, nearly getting to a point with our language learning where, I could be a bit more free with my time. So because the visiting culture hadn't been as easy as I expected, I decided to get trained as a doula, which is an emotional and informational support person for women as they go through birth or often leads antenatal classes and things like that. so not medically trained, but somebody who's there to support. as a way to try and meet women and trying to be a blessing in those pivotal moments in life. so that was really amazing. It was great to stretch my brain in a different way as well, and actually do some learning that felt like you were accomplishing and getting past the learning curve rather than the never-ending transition of life overseas and more to learn. so that was amazing and I really enjoyed, being at the few births that I got to be at and meeting women in that way as well and supporting them, and also being able to bring Jesus into those moments. yeah, that was really powerful, and, really rewarding. And your team had quite a culture of prayer- Yeah as well, didn't it? That was a big part of the ministry out there. Yeah, definitely. So we would meet together five days a week for prayer for an hour and a half in the mornings. Mm-hmm. And we would pray over, mostly these different places in the country that we were focused on. Mm. But also for the country in general or for each other or different things like that. so It was really great to be postured in that way. It really felt like God was leading our strategy. so we were joining with what God was doing, and we were discovering that in prayer. and so encouraging 'cause we joined probably a year after the team was formed, and so it was still very much early days in terms of this pioneering vision, for the team. and now we, like, still keep up with them. They're five years in or something like that, and the transformation that has happened in those places- and the doors that have been opened only through prayer- is just incredible. Mm-hmm. It's really amazing. And now, because of that, they have relationships, 'cause these were places where there's very few contacts, there's no believers, so you go in and you think, "How on earth, Lord, are we gonna see something happen here?" now there are open doors with which to share Jesus from, and, in a few places, people who have, yeah, come to know Jesus. So that's really, really encouraging. Wow. That's powerful. Yeah, I think we sometimes forget that pioneering places, there's just so much going on that has to be tackled in prayer- Mm from the prayer room, not out on the streets. Yeah. Where we think we can have an impact. Yeah, things change in the spiritual realm. Mm-hmm. And then things change on the street. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that is quite a common story around the world of missions, I think. Yeah. even you think you could, like- go out almost like treasure hunting. praying beforehand that God would help you to meet people- Mm. or maybe that he would give you a picture of somebody or some clothing. Like, I remember doing that in some of the places, and you think, "Oh, yeah, you're literally in the village, where you wanna meet these people, where the only place really that they live." And you could go out and still not even make a meaningful connection, you know. the guy who owns the shop is away and- Mm. there's a non-local guy running it for him. Mm-hmm. And then the only people in that shop are actually some people who've moved from another area, and so they're not part of the people group and they're new. I, I remember that happening multiple times. even going to this place, it's not easy to really meet people and make a meaningful connection. It takes time- Mm. and it takes prayer, and even if we had met someone, is that person the right person? are they someone who's willing to invite us in? Or are they just willing to have a conversation? So it- Mm really takes time and prayer- Yeah for it to actually happen. you know, sometimes we think, "Oh, you just go there and it's gonna work. you're gonna meet the people." Mm. You're, like, literally in the one village they live in and you still can't meet them sometimes. Yeah, and I think there's a word there about consistency as well and perseverance even when you don't necessarily see things. so we were hoping to do two years in our city of language and culture learning and then move out to one of these locations. so we would travel generally as a team or different formations of our team 'cause we had quite a lot of families, so it wasn't always possible for them. But roughly for a week, once every month, once every six weeks. So that was also quite an upheaval in our routine to do- Mm the traveling. It's a quite big country, so these places would be at least a seven-hour drive away, seven to like- Mm 11 hours drive one way. and so it's a big commitment. but it's that slow building of reputation and relationship. And these people are very hospitable, so I think sometimes as Westerners it's easy to just think, "Oh, great, well, there's an inn," and like I can kind of take advantage of that. Mm. But learning for the respect to be truly mutual and to take the time to understand them rather than just lean on their generosity. Yeah. I think that's what consistency gives you, and they really start to see you and understand you. And in that, we became very good at, very casually just sharing Bible stories. I guess name-dropping different parables or- Mm being like, "Oh, there's a story about that. Have you heard this?" and really working together as team in that. there's one like recent story that comes to mind of a teammate and I, actually our teammate that we mentioned that had the health issues. such a gifted and anointed, evangelist, but because of her limitations in health hadn't been able to learn as much of the language as she'd like. And so she would just be able to weave these stories in, but would need somebody who spoke the language better to translate. And so when we were there together visiting, we could bounce off each other and I'd be able to translate, and she'd be like, "Oh, that makes me think of this. Let's weave that in." Mm-hmm. And also inviting prayer into those spaces. So not just praying for these places like we've mentioned, but praying with people. Mm. And seeing the spirit change in that moment as well. and sometimes it's just a focus on, Oh, you have a bad leg. Like let's pray for that." which we definitely saw God move in, which is amazing, and can then open the door to people having greater curiosity. But also just to show that we're also people of prayer. they pray five times a day. We don't necessarily shout about it in the same way. But we are people of prayer. We are people who bring things back to God. We depend on God, and we're submitted to Him also. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, really good. Yeah. Any other key stories, memories from those years that you had there? Yeah. again that relates to prayer. We, had one of the people groups that we wanted to reach out to that we just couldn't find them. they're like a traveling group. they didn't necessarily have a specific place, and so actually finding them in a place where the police wouldn't restrict your access was quite difficult. And so we had sort of a prayer day where we literally were like, "God, where can we find these people?" and we split off into various groups and followed various different things, of where to go and find them and just go and ask people. And, the outcome of one of those groups, I can't remember the specific thing that God spoke to us to lead us to, but through certain conversations, we found someone who said that they knew where they lived, ish. And so I got to go one day, with a friend of mine who spoke very good Arabic, to go and find this group. And just remember praying the whole way and we're like, "We don't know what we're gonna go and find, and we don't know what we're gonna go and do." But, it was one of those crazy adventures as well, 'cause we, took a tuk-tuk and I watched two crashes happen on the way. And then we checked with the tuk-tuk driver. He wouldn't, said he wouldn't go any further, and so we took a microbus after that and we just, again, just praying God, please take us to the right place." the description we had was not even the name of an area. It was like, "I think it's somewhere, like, under the bridge, and then you kind of go, like, past a house." was like that. Yeah. And so we were just going, "Okay, we'll try." And then I think the microbus driver that we met was, like a, distant family member of some people from this people group. And so he was like, "Okay. Yeah, I know And then sort of dropped us off in the right place. And again, we just prayed like, "God, would you help us to meet the right people?" And so we walked along, we passed a group of people, we passed another group of people, and then there were some people sitting down and my friend was like, we should go and sit down and chat to them." And so he went and sat down. I think we got a coffee with them, and he just started chatting. And it's difficult to ask about this people group because the name of their group is essentially a swear word. and that was the only way we knew to refer to them at that point. It was like, and you couldn't- It's what they're colloquially known as. Yeah. You couldn't say "Oh, are you this?" because most people would be like, "What?" "No, of course I'm not." Like- even if they were, you'd say, "No, I'm not," 'cause it means you're a robber, you're a thief, you're a prostitute- So it was like we needed to have a conversation, and then eventually asked the guy he was sitting next to, and the guy was like very, very taken aback. But he eventually was like, I know some people who are," and then we kind of asked more and more, and then it turns out he was from- Mm this people group, and it was amazing. he then led us, we were kind of on the edge of a slum area, and then he led us in, which was the scariest experience I've ever because I, I would consider myself pretty good with directions and knowing where I went, but this was just, it was a maze. Mm. It was like- I literally could not get out of here- Mm-hmm if I tried, even if I had a map. It's really tall cement buildings, and everyone has their washing- Yeah hanging over the windows and- Yeah, and your shoulders touch both walls. It was- And it's a dirt floor, and it's people everywhere, and like- Yeah some noises. but we eventually went in, and we managed to meet one of the, I guess like one of the uncles or one of, the leaders that was very, very kind. we had some preliminary questions, just to try and establish relationship. And again, part of this reputation was probably earned, so we knew we weren't gonna stay for a very long time, but we were just gonna establish a connection, which we managed to do. I got, offered by a random lady who wanted to kiss me as we walked past, but, my language wasn't quite right, so I was like She said something to me and I sort of stopped and was like, "What does that mean?" and because I stopped, I was like in front of her. And then my friend turned around, grabbed my arm, pulled me forwards and goes, "No, you don't wanna kiss her, do you?" Um, but just opened those opportunities and it was like praying each step of the journey. Okay, the tuk-tuk took us this far. Okay, God, what's next? And then it's like, okay, we're in this microbus, and then the microbus driver has an idea of- where we need to go, and it's like, okay, it's not just us. okay, he's leading us to the right people, and then sitting down, the right group. You know, we passed a few group, but it's that okay, here's the intuition. Here's God's move, prompt for us. Mm. Okay, this is the right person, and that established a group that enabled sort of some continued a bit, possibilities for the team to meet people that were there. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Very good. Well, time is flying by. it's really interesting. It sounds like, yeah, you had some really varied experiences out there. Mm. But all this time, you're not feeling great still. Yeah. You're just pushing through your limitations. at some point you realize we've gotta go back and get some serious medical attention- Yeah and just deal with this, right? Yeah. So we were told that it was sinusitis at the time, so we were told by an Egyptian doctor that we'd probably just need to go back to the UK and get an operation done. And so we were like, "Okay." Well, that was another moment as well where church back home, supporters back home were, just amazing because, our sending church actually was going through a series on, it seemed good to us in the Spirit from that phrase from Acts, just through the different moments that that shared. And they were kinda discussing it, and they knew about our situation, that we were praying and weighing up these things, and we were asking God. But honestly, the thought to us of returning to the UK for that made us feel so guilty. So we were like, "We've only been here two years." Like, We can't leave. We can't give this up. we've hardly started to hack it. we don't want to be the people who turn back because things are too tough. we want to be committed and all in for this. and so there were two things we prayed for. We prayed that the doctor would recommend if it was right- Mm that we return for treatment in England, and that is what he said. And then- at the same time, our church was going through this series and I think about three of them, like in the week between Sundays were just praying for us and then felt reminded of that, and then came together and shared it on the Sunday. And it was a real life moment of it seemed good to the spirit and to us. Mm. That was how it really felt to them, and then they were able to communicate that to us, and that was just like a breath of fresh air for us. Yeah. Just saying, "We think you should come back." Yeah. Yeah. And like the Lord had really impressed it on their hearts- Mm and we were like, "Okay. Well, it's out of our hands then." Yeah. And that is why having... at least why we so appreciated having a sending church taking responsibility of us in that way. Yeah. Because we get to defer to their discernment as well. so that was really impactful, and then we also received a word from somebody who didn't know us that said, or our situation, that... So our, country's basically a desert. That said, "I feel like you're in a desert," but often people refer to that as like a spiritual wilderness. But they hear like, "No, specifically I feel like you're in a physical desert and God is taking you out and putting you into a green place." Where you can rest and feel at home. Yeah. So we were like, "Okay, Lord, this is quite clear." Mm-hmm. And so in the space of about two months, we were going from just gonna pursue this here, and as Stephen mentioned, if I just have to be here so that I can thrive and I can share Jesus, then okay. Like- Mm we'll do that, Lord, to suddenly being back in England. Yeah. Which we thought was gonna be like a three-month, get the operation, get out, Then discovered it wasn't sinusitis, it was actually a head thing. Yeah. And that it was actually the continuation of the concussion, which the sinusitis never felt right to us, but who are we to disagree with the doctors? yeah, we kind of started to pursue that. I remember going to a consultant, fairly soon when we got back. Someone paid for us to have a private appointment 'cause it would've taken two years probably to get a appointment with a consultant. And, yeah, they were like, "Oh, no, your sinus is very healthy. It's one of the most healthy I've ever seen," sort of thing. And it was like, he thought he was being lovely, but he was actually crushing us with this news, to be honest, because it just meant- Mm it was all gonna be so much more complicated. Back to square one. Yeah. And, the kind of other side to this is I remember as we arrived back, we got a message, asking us if we would ever consider helping with the sending side, and that there would be an opportunity for us if we did. And so- yeah, just the pairing of these things. Honestly, even now, it's really hard for us To hold that after our, you know, our journeys even compared to some people, it was a long journey for us to know we were called into global mission. We both felt pretty convicted by the time we were 13. Yeah. We went out at 22, and we came back after two years. Mm. Not what we'd expected at all, but- Mm also very clearly led by God. And he's done a lot, I think, in our hearts of deconstructing having going on a pedestal. Cause the whole church is called to missions. Mm. It's a commandment from Jesus, but we understand that not everybody is in a position or is necessarily given an assignment to go overseas. Mm. So what is our involvement? And that's been what we've then wrestled with in the UK- and how he's just shown us that we can be. I mean, we'd still love to return overseas to one day when he opens that door. Yeah. but yeah, we can still be involved in the sending, and that- Absolutely is just as much involved in God's mission as the- Yeah going and as needed. Yeah. Along with praying and giving and supporting- Yeah and welcoming the nations here. Yeah. It's all a part of God's mission, but we do need to step into his mission, whatever that looks like. Mm. Definitely. And you guys have done an amazing job here with us. yeah, you're natural mobilizers. You're journeying with so many young people, and it's been wonderful to see that in the past couple of years, and God using those gifts, even though it's not where you might have chosen to be. that echoes with my story too. I didn't know what this thing was, this mobilization- Mm and so on, but I found I loved it, and God had his reasons for bringing us out of Pakistan. it's reminding me of Dick Brogden a few episodes ago who said, our calling is actually to Jesus- Mm. Mm and then to his mission- Mm-hmm and to his people- Yeah and to the lost wherever they are. and that doesn't change. The assignment changes. Mm-hmm. The location changes. Yeah. But the calling, the mission, the heart, the worship, that doesn't. Mm. Yeah. and so yes, you're in a different season at the moment. You're in this end of things. But what have been, just quickly, a couple of highlights- the last year or so, couple years here? Yeah. I think one of the major highlights is just to journey with people who are in the process of trying to respond obediently to what God's doing. Like- a lot of people have very special connections through fellowship, and I think a connection to the church when you know somebody is chasing after God with everything that they have, and the honor of walking with each other in doing that- Mm it's just amazing. And I think we get the chance to chat with so many people, young and old, who all they wanna do is follow what God has for their life, and it's such an encouragement. "You know what? The UK church is responding to God's call." Mm. "And there are people who actively wanna do what he's calling them to do." Mm. And I just feel so encouraged about that, and it's like I am part of a great cloud of witnesses who are trying respond obediently. And these are all real people as well. Like, real life gets in the way and makes it difficult. some people get whacked on the head. You know? These things happen. But- to be able to walk with people is just amazing, 'cause God does incredible things for each individual. Yeah, I think for me it's reflecting on how normal we all are- Mm. and how amazing the things that God does through us are. and we saw, glimpses of God moving amazingly and now being back here, I feel like we get to hear so many testimonies that come through, and also testimonies of people who are walking towards overseas full-time ministry. and everybody is just a normal person Yeah. Who God does something miraculous through. and usually have made plenty of mistakes along the way. I just think how incredible is it that yes, it's important to do things like training, and yes, it's important to, do vision trips and be aware and, be wise. And also, God chooses completely normal people and then takes... Often people go through really tricky things and they have to decide that Jesus is enough regardless, and they stay faithful to him. And- yeah, he is himself, he is this incredible God. And the focus is on him. It's not necessarily about, I don't know, certain miraculous stories that happen, but- people living these faith-filled lives that are laid down to Jesus genuinely. and they're just normal people, and God loves it, and God honors it, and you can just see that all over their lives. I love to see that. It's amazing. Mm. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. It is encouraging, isn't it? We meet a lot of students, don't we? A lot of young people in their 20s. Their life is before them. Anything. They've got skills, they've got jobs, opportunities sometimes. But yeah, to see them saying, "Okay, Lord, wherever, whatever- Mm-hmm however, I'm in." Mm-hmm. "I'm all in." And that's wonderful. And so just to see people getting on the airplanes and- Mm-hmm. Yeah you know, heading off to Southeast Asia and the city centers out there or into- Mm the Gulf or- Mm-hmm you know, to go and work in the deserts of Africa and so on. And, you know- Yeah they're with unreached peoples and- Yeah just to be a little part of the story that God's- Mm-hmm got their mind. And they may face suffering. Their witness may be their suffering- Mm-hmm in front of the nations. That's a very John Piper thing, isn't it? You know, taking out of... I think it's taken out of Philippians, you know, displaying the sufferings of Christ- Yeah before the nations. It's part of the mission of God. Yeah. Um, so your story ties into that, and who knows what some of these young people are gonna face as we're sending them out. But it is a joy and a privilege to see what God is up to. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, in the UK church and beyond. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You know, all over the world. Yeah. Yeah. It's very cool. Great. Guys, it's been so good to have you today. Stephen, I feel there's one funny story you were telling me earlier about language mistake. Oh, yeah. Give us that one to end on. For sure, yeah. It was actually, mentioned an amazing dinner which felt like a culture changing moment for us. Before my head injury, it was actually there. I was chatting to a guy and, I found out he was a plumber kind of through the very broken language that I had at the time. Mm. And, knew that we had a broken toilet, and so I was like, "How can I stay in contact with this guy?" I was like, "Oh, well, maybe I can get him to come and look at the broken toilet." And so, like, my brain kind of slowly worked it out and I was going, "Ah." So I said, "Ana," which means, like, I'm, And I was trying to say my, and then I was, like, thinking again. I was like, "How do you say toilet?" Say hamam. So I said, "Ana hamam," and that means I'm a toilet. And the, the, the amazing thing is that across the room, our teammate who had much better language was absolutely wetting herself laughing at me. Whereas this guy who I was trying to talk to, who I'd just told him I was a toilet, was looking at me so longingly, desperate to hear what I was gonna say. He gave me complete kindness, whereas my supportive, teammates, "supportive," was laughing and wetting herself at me. Resting you. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. We've all been there. We've got our fair share of- Mm-hmm big mistakes on the field, whether light-hearted or otherwise. Yeah. Uh, well, thanks, guys. Been a joy to be with you this afternoon, and great that you're on our team here. We love, love having you around. But thanks for sharing your stories and especially the hard stuff today. Mm. It's great. Yeah. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2 1:05:33

Thanks so much for joining us today, guys. If you want to get in touch, you can email me personally, matt@frontiers.org.uk. And here's a great quote to end with from David Livingstone, "God only had one Son, and he made that Son a missionary." Have a great week, and make sure you don't miss our next episode